Zhongyongdaoist

Yoda, I'm going to give you and Mrs. Yoda the same advice I have given elsewhere on The Tao Bums, which is to by yourself a copy of Between Heaven and Earth by Harriet Beinfield and Efrem Korngold. This is a very good introduction to traditional Chinese treatment and most importantly has a self evaluation questionnaire which is worth the price of the book itself. As far as Chinese traditions are concerned you should be able to eat just about anything people normally eat and have no problems with indigestion etc., and a traditional Chinese doctor would probably be horrified if one of his patients came to him to complain of indigestion once a year! None of what I am about to say is intended to either diagnose or treat any medical disorder and is offered for information purposes only about traditional Chinese beliefs and practices. Traditionally stomach problems can indicate heat in the Stomach, or cold in the Stomach, or Liver qi invading the stomach, etc. The variety of remedies both 'cool' and hot which have been advised indicates this, but to take a cooling tea like peppermint will only make a cold Stomach worse, and cayenne will be a disaster for a hot stomach, and none of these address the problem of Stagnant Liver qi invading the Stomach or Spleen, which is one of the most common causes of stomach problems. In short knowing the energy imbalance that is the root of the problem is essential and that is what you can find out using the questionnaire in Between Heaven and Earth, so get it, and do the evaluation for your whole family, it is useful information. This is useful for your children too, if my parents had been able to access information like this and put it into practice my life would have been considerably improved, because problems that could have been easily addressed in childhood were turned into longterm imbalances by Western medicine that have taken years to work out of my system. I find your experience with vegan diets interesting. The fact that Mrs. Yoda's problems returned after you went back on a ordinary diet indicates that the vegan diet did nothing about the underlying causes of the problem. Considered from a traditional perspective, once you have addressed the imbalance you can stop taking herbal supplements, especially if you start cooking with Chinese herbs (This is another strong point of Between Heaven and Earth it is also introduction to therapeutic cooking with Chinese herbs), to maintain the proper balance. I used to have considerable problems with digestion, the herbal supplements helped enormously, especially the ones dealing with Liver/Spleen disharmony, but to talk about specifics without knowing the underlying imbalances is a waste of time. Good luck in solving Mrs. Yoda's problem.

Hello Magda, sorry to be absent for so long, I have been very busy. I am glad that you tried the ginger and it is helpful. Your attitude of trying one thing at a time is a good one, because that way you can keep track of what does and does not work. Fire Dragon, when I first tried the fresh ginger myself I did it with green tea because in Jake Fratkin's discussion of 'Chuan Qiong Chiao Ta Wan' in his first book (Chinese Herbal Patent Formulas; A Practical Guide, 1990, p. 52), Fratkin specifically recommends taking this remedy with green tea. This remedy is very good for expelling external cold and for treating the first stages of 'cold invasion'. I assumed Fratkin recommended green tea because it would complement the expelling properties of the formula. In his subsequent work Chinese Herbal Patent Medicines; The Clinical Desk Reference, Fratkin says to take the medicine with either green or black tea (p. 3-5), but also translates the name several times as 'Ligusticum [with] Green Tea Mix Pill', as he did in his first book. So, go figure, as they used to say. The fresh ginger is mostly used to warm the exterior and to expel cold from the exterior thus its use in the early stages of what the Chinese call 'wind invasion', or colds and flu, by itself it will not help with the type of long standing cold symptoms that you describe. Dried ginger is more applicable to problems of a chronic nature and is used to expel cold from both the Stomach and Lungs, in this case adding dried ginger to a beef or chicken broth, or something like that, could be useful in the long run, but it would not address problems with Liver stagnation, which could be part of your problem. The Liver stagnation has to be dealt with using other herbs. Sometimes problems with indigestion can come from 'cold' in the stomach and dried ginger is used to treat stomach problems that originate from cold, but stomach problems can come from other sources also. You might experiment with combining fresh and dried ginger as something which would warm the exterior and the interior, but do this on a limited basis and watch for any adverse changes like digestive problems, to avoid overheating yourself. Regarding depression, the depression associated with Liver stagnation is usually the result of suppressed anger, whereas there is also a depression associated with the lungs either from deficient qi, or from cold in the lungs which is very much a feeling of despair, and feeling overwhelmed by things and wanting to be left alone. Unfortunately dealing with your problem in the long run will probably require more complex herbal formulae such as the ones that I mentioned, that is why it would be good to find a reasonably priced reliable source of herbs and/or a good practitioner. Part of the reason for this is that will your original cold condition, which certainly could have been a constitutional condition, might have been dealt with in a straightforward fashion when you were young, but in the meantime the way that complications arising from it have been treated have probably made the matter more complex. That was certainly my own case, what would have been a relatively simple problem, if treated with Chinese treatments when I was a boy, turned into a very complex matter that has required years to completely unravel. I think I am almost done with it. Best wishes.

The principle difference between the Chinese view of the underworld and the one that came to dominate the west was that it was more like the view of the underworld that Plato portrays in his Gorgias, both of these were like the Roman Catholic Purgatory, but not 'hell'. The difference being that while the Chinese hells and Plato's underworld basically prepared people to be reborn on earth, the Roman Catholic Purgatory prepared people for glorification in heaven. In both the Chinese underworld and in Plato's underworld some souls might be confined forever because they were damaged beyond repair. The cultural differences are interesting, while it is possible that a Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy may never leave Plato's underworld, he specifically mentions the abuse of political power as something that could get you stuck in the underworld forever or at least a very long time. In the Chinese underworld suicide seems to be unforgivable and in some belief systems (though most religious authorities condemned this) accidental death. In Chinese beliefs, proper religious intervention could get you out of hell earlier, but, Plato probably would not allow that because he looked at such intervention as an attempt to 'bribe the Gods' and subvert Justice, and he was extremely critical of that idea. Plato felt that such attitudes encouraged bad behavior because of the 'wiggle room' it left for people to hope that they might get away with their 'crimes'. Religious intervention will certainly mitigate the stays in the Chinese underworld and possibly even help suicides, and of course the religious intervention offered by the pre-Reformation Catholic clergy was one of the 'scandals' that helped to bring about the Reformation itself. Now it was the similarity to Plato's Gorgias that caused Protestant Christians to reject the Catholic view of Purgatory as a 'Pagan error' which had crept into Christianity and subverted true religion and such 'Pagan errors' were part of the reason why the Pope was the anti-Christ, or at least so the early Protestants like to think. There is another much misunderstood part of the Roman Catholic afterlife, and that is Limbo. This is the place where virtuous Pagans such as Socrates (remember what I said in a previous post about Justin Martyr and his belief of Socrates as a pre-Christian Christian?) would hang out, it was also of course the place for unbaptized babies, which having died before they could commit personal sin could not be condemned, but were also not on the Christian fast track to Heaven either. Two interesting literary uses of Limbo are in Dante's Divine Comedy, Limbo is where Dante meets Virgil, a virtuous Pagan if ever there was one, and on the other side of the Protestant divide is Marlowe's Dr. Faustus. In Dr. Faustus fascinating first discussion with Mephistopheles, Mephistopheles does everything he can do dissuade Faustus from following through in his intention, perhaps the demonic equivalent of 'full disclosure', but Faustus believes he '...confounds hell in Elysium', in other words, Faustus is claiming to be a virtuous Pagan and hopes that he will maintain that status and avoid Hell. Marlowe's whole drama is about how there's no such thing as a virtuous Pagan and Faustus cannot avoid fate which he is creating for himself, except through the saving power of Christ whom Faustus denies to the end. So the Chinese and Platonic underworlds have more in common with Purgatory than Hell, and there is something else as well, which is that the Chinese and Platonic underworlds are run as part of the cosmic order for the ultimate benefit of their temporary residents, either to prepare them for a future life reborn on earth or in the case of Purgatory for glorification in heaven. Suffering was viewed almost as a type of 'tough love' therapy for those souls who made poor choices in life. The Roman Catholic Hell, on the other hand, was very different, it was a place of exile, run by those who were exiled there. This one of the reasons why it is not a happy place to be, if you think of a prison run by the inmates, by their rules and for their purposes, well you get the picture. So the myths of the 'rebellious' angels, which I mentioned in a previous post, became the dominant influence in Christian ideas about hell, and here is where we start to get into the notion of 'demons' as they were to develop in the West, in a way quite different from 'daimons', much less the Gods. An important part of their definition is their rebellion and their being against the divinely instituted order. We will take a closer look at both these rebellious spirits in the West and how they differed from their Chinese counterparts next time.

One of the great tragedies of Chinese history was also a tragedy for the world. This was the great 'burning of the books' instituted by the first Qin Emperor. Vast amounts of ancient Chinese literature was destroyed and of what was preserved, that was endangered during the revolution that overthrew the Qin Dynasty and the subsequent chaos until the Han Dynasty could be established. Granted the survival of ancient literature is always difficult, and who knows what might have happened if all of the literature of Chinese Antiquity had been allowed to survive and a more natural process of preservation and weeding out had occurred, it might have made no real difference but maybe some important information would have survived. One of the results of this was that when early Buddhist missionaries showed up in China in the late Han and for a few centuries thereafter they were welcomed by the Daoists as long lost brothers, even if long lost barbarian brothers. After all in what direction was Laozi headed on his ox when he delivered the Dao De Jing to the border guard Yin Xi? The result was that a lot of Buddhist teachings entered Daoism and became the models for Daoist Scriptures. There were also some interesting forgeries going on such as The Scripture of the Conversion of the Barbarians, which were used to support the Daoist claim to primacy. As Buddhism came more and more into its own in China, the Buddhists 'forged' back and a long cycle of polemical forgeries each lambasting and countering the others pretenses grew up. People with overly romanticized ideas about Buddhism and Daoism think that such things only happened in Western Religions ('The Testament of Orpheus' in the early Hellenistic period and 'The Donation of Constantine' around its end come immediately to mind), but the human proclivity to forge for the sake of 'Truth' is unbounded and reaches across historical and cultural boundaries to indict just about every organized religion in the world. On a practical level the upshot was that the Daoist found themselves adopting Buddhist notions such as hungry ghosts and asuras in whole lots, as well as Buddhists hells and other fun things. While it is easy to identify some forms of Buddhist influence, such as I have mentioned, it is hard to say how much of what became Chinese beliefs and practices about demons was indigenous folklore and how much was derived from Indian folklore brought over in Buddhist sources. The folklore of most cultures is has similar themes and is seldom well documented. Historically after about 500 AD, roughly the end of the Hellenistic period in Europe we find that the conflicts between Buddhists and Daoist were to become more strident. During the Tang dynasty the Buddhists were at something of a disadvantage since the Tang Imperial family considered themselves descendants of Laozi, they really tended to favor Daoism. When the Daoists were in power they would suppress the Buddhists and when the Buddhists were in power they would suppress the Daoists, the Confucians would suppress either or both as needed. This conflict naturally showed up on other levels than political and eventually each side believed, rightly or wrongly, that the other was was using supernatural means to interfere with their own conduct of 'True Religion'. The above hardly does justice to the complex and interesting strands, both those woven together and those torn apart during this period, but then neither did my consideration of the Western Hellenistic Period, some things need to be simplified and others just left out, if for no other reason than to keep these posts down to a few paragraphs as opposed to a small book. As we move into the period from 500 AD to 1500 AD the Buddhist/Daoists conflict was to prove a major stimulus to the development of the lore of demons and the practices related to them, but before we get to that I will make a cross cultural comparison, between the Chinese and Christian notions of Hell and even find the beginnings of the doctrine of Purgatory in the dialogs of Plato. This will then be used to give some insight into the differences that developed in the concept of 'demons' between China and Europe.

I am glad that you appreciated the advice on ginger, I was afraid you would be disappointed, but as I noted I am suddenly more busy than I had planned and I wanted to leave you with something that anyone could do and not have to worry about sources, which is what concerns me about getting past ginger. Ginger is, however, surprisingly effective, so I am glad you said would give it a try. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Fire Dragon's recommendations on garlic are also good, but for getting rid of a chill I find ginger works better for me. Again for all that follows I issue my evolving disclaimer, this is for information purposes only, and only for the purposes of balancing the bodies energies for purposes of spiritual cultivation, it is not for the diagnosis or treatment of any medical condition and any reference to medical conditions is for example purposes only, so that people can identify when the bodies energies are severely out of balance according to traditional beliefs and practices. In case of medical diagnosis or treatment, always work with a licensed medical professional. I get most of my Chinese herbs and herbal products from local dealers with whom I have dealt for almost 20 years, it sounds like you are not quite that lucky. When they don't have what I need, or something new that I want to try, then I turn to MaxNature an excellent online source, but while their shipping rates are very reasonable for here in the U.S., they may be prohibitive for you use them for shipment to Russia. On one occasion I ordered from tcmtreatment.com in China. My one experience with them left me with a favorable impression. I want you to do some searches for the following items and see what you come up with in terms of a better source for you, perhaps if you search in Russian, or some other language you are familiar with, you may find a good source for them and for some others I may mention in another post, they are: Minor Blue Dragon formula or pills (Xiao Qing Long Wan, wan is just Chinese for pill) 999 Zheng Tian Wan The first, Minor Blue Dragon formula, is specific for expelling cold from the lungs. I will say more about it in another post. The second, 999 Zheng Tian Wan, is one of the most effective formulae which I have found for expelling systemic cold, it is usually sold for the relief of headaches, but the type of headache for which it is used, is one with a rather broad systemic basis, and that is why it is useful for expelling systemic cold. I don't have time to explain further now. Since I have also suffered most of my life from cold such as you describe, I have a lot of experience with dealing with it, and I am quite surprised by the power of the 999 Zheng Tian Wan formula. I discovered it in late October or early November of last year, and the difference between last year and this year is quite remarkable. There is also a brand that I like, Guang Ci Tang, though Plum Flower is also a very good brand. I have only one reservation about Guang Ci Tang and that is that it doesn't seem to have a GMP rating, but I still use them. The GMP standards and the system that supports them were instituted by the Australian Government and many Chinese manufacturers adhere to it and the inspections that are required to maintain it. Why Guang Ci Tang doesn't, I don't know, but they do have an excellent reputation and high standards on their own. In your search, watch for pricing, my hope is that you find a European, or perhaps even a Chinese source, that can give you a good price both on merchandise and shipping. Good Luck!

A good observation Spectrum. There is a strong crossover here, because advanced martial artists were sometimes taught Dao Wu, what Saso calls 'Military Magic' in his The Teachings of Taoist Master Chuang. Military Magic consists of several interlocking disciplines including exorcism, magical attack and defense between fellow practitioners, and also the use of powerful spirits to influence the outcomes of military campaigns and battles. It's a good thing that you brought this up because it has helped me focus on how to develop the next few installments of my account of the development of the concept of 'demons'. I hope to get back to posting later today or tomorrow. I am trying to get as much done before next Monday (when I will start to be very busy), as I can. I may even be able to finish it. What was a particular help was thinking about 'Military Magic' in China and Europe. As Idries Shah pointed out in his Oriental Magic, there are some striking similarities, however, there are also some fundamental differences.

I am sorry that a good practitioner seems to be difficult in your circumstances. I am going to take what you say as acknowledgment of my disclaimer. Everything that I am now going to say is only for information purposes about traditional Chinese beliefs and practices. Regrettably I am pressed for time at the moment, some things that looked like they were going OK have suddenly become problematic, and I must redirect some of my effort. I will prepare a longer discussion if I can, but for right now I have two recommendations. First because you seem to have a good grasp of English I am going to recommend the book Between Heaven and Earth by Harriet Beinfield and Efrem Korngold, it is a good introduction to TCM and includes questionnaires for evaluating your own situation. It also has a great section on cooking with the Chinese herbs that are, shall we say, edible (many are hot and bitter), plus information on basic herbal practice etc. You mentioned a friend who was into qi gong, you and your friend might both benefit from its study and further both your health and your spiritual development. I don't know about your financial situation, or how hard this would be to get in Russia, but you really need something like this, perhaps you and your friend could split the cost if that would help. The second is to keep fresh ginger root on hand, and to work right it must be fresh, the Chinese categorize fresh and dried ginger in different groups and in my own experience they are quite right. Before going out or if you feel a chill coming on, you can prepare a combination of green tea and fresh ginger this is amazingly effective (I was surprised myself). All it takes is a one teabag of green tea per cup and a few slices of fresh ginger root, if you want to brew a pot then scale up accordingly. In the case of a chill drink this combination while keeping very warm until your break into a sweat. This can be used in cases of a straight chill, or of chills alternating with fever (this alternation is the body attempting to expel the cold), the sooner the tea is started the better, but once you start into a straight fever with no chills stop the ginger and just do green tea. Traditionally ginger is used only in cold conditions, using it when a fever has already started is a mistake and may make the condition worse. If you want you can experiment with adding dried ginger root, but remember for chills you must have the fresh ginger, the dried tends to warm the interior and since I don't know much about your situation I am hesitant to do anything that might overheat your stomach, however if you find that the combination feels good and especially if it seems to improve your digestion, then it may be a good combination for you. I wish you the best, and hope that you find a good practitioner soon.

I found your post looking for another and decided to reply. The condition which you describe is definitely one that can be dealt with and the person who suggested an acupuncturist had a good beginning, but you need to find an acupuncturist who is thoroughly familiar with herbal practice in order to really solve the problem. If you thought of acupuncture as tuning the engine in an automobile, you should think of herbs as addressing major problems with an engine. You have major problems. That said I have to put in the following. DISCLAIMER: the following is not intended to diagnose or treat any medical condition, but is offered as advice based on traditional beliefs and practices for purposes of information only, the reader assumes all responsibility for using this information in a responsible manner. The type of problem with cold that you mention can have several sources, and you may have more than one of these problems. Cold in the limbs is associated with Stagnant Liver qi. Coldness and aversion to cold is associated with qi deficiency in general. A condition traditionally called 'damp excess' can cause one to feel chilled and to have trouble warming up. There are others, but these are the principle ones. From what you say it sounds like you have a constitutional deficiency and it has gotten worse over time, also treatments which you may have received to reduce fever may have created long term imbalances, which will also need to be addressed. I think now you can begin to see why I recommended seeing an herbalist/acupuncturist. I understood that in the old Soviet Union there was much official interest and research into acupuncture and Chinese herbs. I don't know if that would make it easier in to find a good practitioner in modern Russia, but that is what you need. There are actually a lot of good herbal formulae for dealing with the type of cold situation which you describe, indeed one of the greatest traditional works on medicine not only in China, but I believe the world, the late Han Dynasty 'Treatise on Cold Induced Disorders' (Shang Han Lun), deals specifically with cold conditions such as you describe. There are some things that might help with colds and flus, but this would be a stop gap measure and you need to find an expert. If you are interested I can post some of this information. But, definitely try to find a good local practitioner. Best of luck with your search.

Tyler, thanks very much for your stimulating reply! I have just scanned it and think that we agree on many points. My interest in group theory and QM follows from reading Not Even Wrong by Peter Woit, it definitely emphasizes the central place of group theory in the development of the Standard Model. One of the things that I found most interesting was the discussion on p. 46 about how the SU(2) symmetry gives rise to particle spin. Particle spin has bothered me for some time, because as you and I know there are no particles and they are not spinning, but to see it arising, apparently out of the mathematics does this old Platonists heart good. I have often maintained that it is not mathematics that models machines, but machines that model mathematics. In any case I will be reviewing both your post and your other link and perhaps preparing some further reflections. If you are interested in who set the stage for Laplace and his demon you might find The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Physical Science by E. A. Burtt interesting. I had left my previous remarks very short because of a lack of time, but hoped that someone might pick it up in an interesting way. You certainly have done so.

Since you quoted me I thought I would add a little context to that quote. Your original question was 'What have you learned Constitutes a Demon?' The question that began this thread. I stated that I could give a historical account and said it might be a long and involved process. I then asked you what you wanted, which in the context was basically a question about what you wanted for an answer to your question about demons, would you like a historical answer. You didn't answer immediately, but both Stigweard and Rain expressed interest so I proceeded. When I said that I was willing to go the distance for you I meant it within the context of providing that historical answer, which I anticipated would require some amount of my time which I was willing to give to you and to the Tao Bums if people were interested. I was surprised at how much time this project and some other topics I chose to post on have taken. Since I find myself with some leisure on my hands I have been able to keep up with the demands and address some other issues such as your own particular case. All I can say now is that after this upcoming week I will probably be forced to cut down on my posts, and may not be able to resume them in the manner that I have been. Regrettably I am not a "'junzi' (gentleman in this case) of leisure" and must return to doing the things that pay the rent and keep food on the table. You do strike me as a person with potential who is having difficulties, but there are several young people who have posted, about whom I also feel concern. I am not sure how I can really help you in particular or others in this forum under my present circumstance, but believe me I am thinking about it. I created Inner Sage Tao in order to help people establish harmony and balance in their lives, and created my site innersagetao.net to spread information about the system, however my work schedule and other things have made it extremely difficult to put the time into the project that it deserves and I almost took it down at the end of November 2008. Less than two weeks ago (somehow it seems much longer) I stumbled on The Tao Bums and decided I would join to see if I could find the inspiration to continue. I have never joined a forum like this before, but The Tao Bums seemed a little different, so I decided to go ahead and join. In the short time I have been posting and reading others post that general impression has remained, that this really is a forum that is worth participating in. I just have not figured out how or in what way I will be able to do so. I am saying all of this because I want you to understand that if I cannot continue as I have been, it is not something that I want to do, but something which I may have to do. So regarding your wish to 'understand all the different types of explanations you offered', I may not be able to do more than finish out my original offer of giving an account of the historical development of the concept of 'demon'. That's not how I wish to leave the matter, but it may come to that. I have been looking at the resources that The Tao Bums provides and thinking about ways that my knowledge could be available to many people and in particular you, because I like the name which you chose for yourself and I think it is more meaningful than you originally thought when you chose it. It is sometimes odd how these coincidences work out isn't it? Am I correct in assuming that by Red Tiger you mean 1986 the year of the Fire Tiger? This is good because while I always envisioned you in your early 20s, I was a bit concerned that I might be dealing with someone under 18 and I wasn't sure what I would do in that circumstance. Also it is interesting because I began associating you with my favorite Fire Dog demon (well half-demon anyway) Inuyasha. I might have been picking up your fire and associating it with Inuyasha's red kimono. I was born in the month of the Fire Dog and found Inuyasha quite by chance in the episode in which the bandit Onigumo creates Naraku by what I can only characterize as a black magic version of the Tibetan Buddhist Chod Rite, fascinating stuff for an anime! I found myself almost unwillingly drawn into the story, I assume because of some hidden connection resulting from being born in the month of the Fire Dog. As I said at the beginning of this paragraph, it is sometimes odd how these coincidences work out. As always I wish you the best. I hope to get back to my postings on 'demons' shortly, and to work out a way that I can make my knowledge available to you and others on the forum in a more effective manner.

Good yeling, I am glad to hear that this seems to be successful, of course the main point is if my advice works in the long term and helps you reach your goals for self cultivation. DISCLAIMER: the following is not intended to diagnose or treat any medical condition, but is offered as advice based on traditional beliefs and practices for purposes of spiritual cultivation only. The fact that some of your symptoms responded to self-massage on Liver three, may indicate that any Yin deficiency is most manifest in the Liver, this can lead to liver wind. Liver Yin deficiency symptoms would include dry eyes, if this is the case than qi ju di huang wan may be beneficial. It is part of the liu wei di huang family, but is specific for Liver Yin deficiency symptoms which may also include blurry vision, feelings of pressure behind the eyes and poor night vision. I see no problem with the idea that you can crack your back and generally speaking such mobility is good, however too loud a noise when 'cracking' may indicate dryness in the joints, which would not be good, and I have also sometimes wondered if a loud cracking might even indicate coldness in the joints as if one were cracking ice. According to traditional concepts coldness in the joints can eventually lead to arthritis as the body attempts to expel the cold through inflammation. This insight goes back to the late Han Dynasty 'Treatise on Cold Induced Disorders' (Shang Han Lun) and this dynamic is the Chinese version of 'auto-immune' disorders which have only recent come to the attention of 'Modern Medical Science'. Generally speaking back strength is rooted in the Kidney qi, both yin and yang, and is helped by a strong liver which strengthens the tendons. You can gage your liver strength and thus your tendon strength by the condition of your finger nails. People laugh at the old pictures of Chinese with three to six inch long finger nails, but basically they were bragging about their liver/gallbladder power. Imagine how strong their tendons were! Good luck with your self-cultivation practices. May you reach your intended goals.

I am not impressed with this site. It has a very 'new age' feel to it and the author shows no particularly deep understanding of Quantum Mechanics. I have made a particular study of Quantum Mechanics and its implication for spiritual practice. If one wants to take a rigorous approach to QM and make well formed deductions, then the only thing that strongly emerges at this time is that QM is a Reductio as Absurdam proof of the the atomistic and mechanistic presupposition that have dominated so called 'science' since the 17th Century. In order to understand QM more deeply I am now making a study of mathematical group theory and symmetry, mostly for my own purposes. Somehow I don't think that the author of this page could say what group theory is off the top of his head or why it is important to QM. A very interesting book for anyone interested in QM and spiritual traditions is Synchronicity: The Bridge Between Matter and Mind by David Peat. A very clearly written book which opens fantastic windows on may vistas. It is actually written by a physicist and a person who has put a lot of thought into the matters which he discusses. I have a couple of minor complaints about it, but otherwise it is absolutely worth the read.

I have studied cultivation for many years and have made a particular study of traditional Chinese medicine from the perspective of such cultivation, so first the following: DISCLAIMER: the following is not intended to diagnose or treat any medical condition, but is offered as advice based on traditional beliefs and practices for purposes of information about spiritual cultivation only, the reader assumes all responsibility for using this information in a responsible manner. It strikes me from what you say that you are not suffering from two much energy, but too little yin ('heat coming up and keeping me awake'), and this may be complicated by wind in the Liver Channel. ('tingling in testicle') You may have been moving in this direction for sometime, and your practices may have brought these matters to the fore. Yin deficiency leads to a condition called 'false fire', this is a situation in which a deficiency is mistaken for excess, it often results in sleeplessness. It can also create hot flashes and fatigue, a perfect example of this is when one is recovering from a cold or flue, the fire of the fever has created a temporary yin deficiency which is better treated by yin tonics than cold or flue medicines. In cases of yin deficiency herbal supplements of the liu wei di huang family may be useful. The Liver channel takes a detour through the testicles and if there is 'wind' in the channel this could cause tingling. This wind can also create problems with nervousness and insomnia when it rises through the Gallbladder channel. Something like tian ma du zhong wan may be useful since it nourishes yin, strengthens the Kidneys and expels wind. The above is very general advice, herbs may allow you to get past this present problem sooner than might otherwise be the case. You should definitely cease all practice except possibly self massage practices which may help to improve your energy flow and balance. Self acu-pressure may be useful. Liver Two is easy to find between the big toe and the toe next to it, if this spot is sore it means liver heat is a problem and massage of this point will help to drain it, just about an inch and a half further up the foot is Liver Three and it is used to calm the mind by draining off liver wind. You should either find a teacher with a good understanding of traditional physiology and herbal and other forms of energy balancing, or you should take time to learn this yourself. I tend to think that every cultivator should have a fair knowledge of these matters, they should either learn it from their teachers, or if on their own they must learn it or they will be risking their health and well being rather than helping it. I believe your present situation is an excellent example of what I mean. I hope that this helps you see your situation in a somewhat different perspective. Gook luck with all of your future studies.

Hello Stigweard, Sorry to be so long in getting back to you Stigweard, but as I note to White Tiger I have been very busy. I did most of my work on this reply, and the previous one to Rain, offline, and more time went into them then would appear from the 'rapid fire' postings here would indicate. I have as usual tried to post 'thoughtful' responses in several senses of the word. By now I am sure that you have read my post on the three worms, which I did from the perspective of traditional Chinese views about them. As I mentioned I liked your idea about 'psychodiverticuli' when I came across it in the Magic thread it has lots of interesting connotative connections that are suggestive. That said, the Chinese perspective is that these are part of the body/qi field, and do not 'gain purchase' into the body, though the notion that the body/qi field with all its curious faults, such as hunger and disease and death, and of course the three worms, gains purchase within a consciousness that 'has been distorted away from its pristine nature' is rather interesting. It seems that you are rather talking about things which could be considered parasitic and opportunistic and could be viewed as entering the body/qi field because of flaws in its defensive qi. Kind of like qi parasites, is this more like what you mean? Another interesting belief similar to the three worms is the seven po souls, these again are part of the body/qi field though way more active than the three worms. They are considered to be able to leave the body and run around at night hooting it up with 'real' demons, which they will sometimes bring back in the hope that they will kill the body, because when the body is dead the po souls are free. Since the po souls are part of the body/qi field they also cannot be exorcised, but rather there are a number of Daoist practices designed to 'ground' (as in, 'Whao dude, my parents were so angry about be being out til four in the morning last night, that I am like grounded, dude, grounded for like six months!') them so that they aren't running around wasting ones qi, or, in a worst case scenario wasting ones jing in a nocturnal emission, after a wild night with some slutty fox spirit. In both of these cases one is quite literally dealing with 'personal' 'demons' as would necessarily be the case for any worldview that was as firmly based on the microcosm/macrocosm correspondence model as Daoism is, but this model also necessarily argues for the existence of demons that would be the macrocosmic counterparts of these internal ones. What one believes about these things depends largely on what one has learned in childhood, which become the unexamined presuppositions of ones adult worldview. The tenacity with which people will hold onto and defend these views, usually without the slightest willingness to even question them for a moment, is one of the reasons why in my posts on the historical development of the concept of demons I have attempted to refrained even from speculating about the ontological status of 'demons'. At the level of defending such fundamental preconceptions, often without even realizing what it is that people are doing, people usually just end out in a ridiculous and 'unmanly' name calling match. You can see it here among the Tao Bums, though it is not as bad here, as elsewhere on the internet, and of course it is pandemic to human society at large. In any case, I hope to shortly be able to return to my posts about the historical development of the concept of 'demon'

Thank you Rain, I remember that you and Stigwead were the first to encourage me in my posts to clarify the nature of the concept of 'demon', and I appreciate it. I do try to be very clear and concise, believe me it is not easy. I am very much a perfectionist and between rummaging through the old attic, and then deciding what absolutely needs to be said and what can be left out and then summarizing it in a few paragraphs and then getting the writing just right, well it's a lot of work. It may take someone less than a minute to read my posts, but the prep time is more like six hours. Aside from the fact that it doesn't matter what the early Zoroastrians were into, it only matters what the people living in the Hellenistic period believed, rightly or wrongly, they were into, what you are saying sounds somewhat anachronistic for such an early time period, and I am somewhat suspicious of it. Generally speaking the ancients had no problem with thinking in terms of 'entities' rather than 'energies', that's more of a modern problem, where heaven forbid that anyone might wish to thought of as an animist, much less the dreaded theist! Moderns find it easier to talk about 'energies', but the ancients just didn't seem to have that hang-up. So unless you can be a little more concrete about the sources that give you this impression, so that I could examine them, there isn't much I can do except share my skepticism about the sources to which you are referring. If you don't have time to go back and find this, I can certainly understand. I don't have the time to do so myself, and I need to finish up these posts so that I can have a little time for my own recent area of interest, group theory and symmetry and their relation to quantum mechanics. A funny thing happened to me on the way to Abraxas.... I read Plato. This came about because I was looking for the roots of Qabalah in the Hellenistic period and started to study Gnosticism. In the midst of reading Elaine Pagel's The Gnostic Gospels, an odd question occurred to me, what is the difference between the Qabalistic Adam Kadmon, the Gnostic Anthropos and the Platonic 'idea' of man? In order to understand how odd this was you would have to realize that my earliest exposure to Plato as a senior in High School left me with a very negative impression. So for me to be asking such a question was unusual to say the least. When I dug into the matter I found that I had been quite mistaken, there was an enormous value to Plato, especially as his ideas were to develop and be explicated during the Hellenistic period. It turned out that Plato and to a lesser extent Aristotle was part of the whole background of Gnosticism and that once you knew enough about Plato and Aristotle you could see the inspiration for many Gnostic themes and ideas. Kurt Rudolph in his Gnosis pretty much characterizes Gnosticism as popular Platonism, but I had already come to that conclusion before I read his book. So about Abraxas? Abraxas is a mythological embodiment of certain ideas, however the name is used by different sects with somewhat different ideas, so he turns out to be a slippery character. Modern Occultists have worked with with the name and Carl Jung also seemed to have an interest, but Abraxas really doesn't interest me that much, any more than most mythological figures do, because of their inherent slipperiness. One of the things I like about the Daoist religious system is that, at least on certain levels it is very systematic, and it is systematic on a fundamental level, whereas in the West the pagan Pantheons are a mess and any attempt to systematize them results in very arbitrary reconstructions of the Deities nature so that it will fit into the new structure. As I studied Qabalah its systematic structure became something that I really valued, but Gnostic 'revelations' seemed too scattered and incoherent. Thus Qabalah would remain with me long after I lost any real interest in Gnosticism. I even worked out a 'Platonic' Qabalah long before David Godwin published his Light in Extension. I would rather spend my time explicating something like the relation between Plato and Plotinus, and how different notions of the soul affect Iamblichus concept of Theurgy (The Hellenistic equivalent of Ceremonial Magic), than speculating about Gnostic mythology. Sorry I can't be of much help with Abraxas.

I suppose that we could arrange what you suggest, certainly I can certainly understand your wish not to hash out private issues in an open forum on the internet. However certain ground rules will have to be set, and I have not yet reached a firm conclusion as to what they should be. Sorry to be so long to be getting back to you, but my schedule varies and sometimes have more and sometimes less free time for things like this. Among other things it now looks like from Mozart's birthday through the middle of February I will be so busy that I will hardly have anytime for posting here.

Hello, Your efforts to reach back to the original texts are laudable, here is an online resource that might really help you and the other bums with any research like this: http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/index.html This site has the Texts of almost all of the Classical texts, Daoist, Confucian, Mohist, etc. In some cases, the most popular texts, the webmaster, Donald Sturgeon, has a good translation which is helpful, but for all of the texts he has an instant dictionary allowing you to see all of the characters in any section and their meanings, with references. Talk about conveniences of the modern age. I also I saw your post replying to the person who saw nothing but superstition in a cathedral, your post showed deep insight. When I finish up my promised postings on the demon thread maybe I will wonder over here. Best wishes to all.

(I notice that in the time I have been working on this post White Tiger has replied both to my previous post and to Stigweard's. Thank you White Tiger for your thoughtful consideration of both of our posts, it shows that we are not wasting our time. I will just post what I had already written as it was before I noticed your responses. As I noted at the end of this post I hope that this is helpful to you. ZYD.) Thank you Stigweard for your own interesting observations. When I perused the Magic thread I noticed the post with 'psychodiverticuli' in it and thought it an interesting and useful concept. You see White Tiger, others are concerned about you too, and as I promised here are some observations on the problem of the 'three worms'. The body naturally produces jing, qi and shen. It is an intricate process involving all of the organs and each of them contributes to the total process in different ways. The the total complex that describes this whole process is called 'san jiao' or the three burners. It is these three burners that become the basis of the three dan of internal cultivation, where the natural process is stepped up and and refined by meditation. The 'three worms' may be thought of as the potential for this process to go wrong. They are imbeded in the system as it were and are part of the mortality of the body. The san jiao are complex systems that as we age become more and more out of balance, and start to interfere with each other. They can also get out of balance because of disease, wrong thinking, wrong training practices and things like that. When I said you were like a 12 cylinder racing engine that was badly out of tune, it is a reference to this type of complex process. Think of an engine with its electrical system, its cooling system and the energy creating system with all of its intricate parts that keep gasoline flowing into the cylinders in the proper amounts at the right time. Tuning keeps the engine working quietly and smoothly. The ordinary person is like a four cylinder engine, there are people who are like six and eight cylinder engines. Imagine the noise of 12 cylinders going bad! Yikes, this is not a happy thought. There is much more to this, but that gives you enough to understand the basics. The 'three worm' are so much a part of human physiology that you cannot simply exorcise them, traditionally they were 'killed'. The notion that they live on grains is one of the stranger misapplications of the law of causation. Long, long ago, someone noticed that everyone ate the five grains, and that everyone died. It's the grains they said and then told everyone else and a curious belief was born, which survives to this day. Traditionally Daoists might take elixirs made from mineral concoctions, which may have killed the worms, but often killed the person who drank them, this became known as 'Liberation by the Corpse', but who is to say that those people who supposedly died from such concoctions may not even now be residents of the Land of the Way? Daoists were also told to avoid the grains and go into the hills to search for the sacred mushroom of immortality and live on herbs, not very practical in these times. The 'lower worm' may interfere with the functioning that produces jing, but more ordinarily it simply wastes one's jing potential on sexual excess. One interesting example of the jiao interfering with each other is when the liver is overly hot, and sexual activity becomes a means of venting the liver's excess heat. Many a 'manly man' who believes that he has a real stud's sex drive, simply has an over heated liver and they are dispersing their kidney energy quite literally down and out like an engine with a leaky radiator. These people are filling the coffers of the makers of Viagra and things like that, if not now then surely later, but Chinese herbal tonics for kidney yang, yin and jing work much better and rebuild the bodies jing and qi. In woman this type of liver problem manifests as difficult menses with profuse bleeding. The 'middle worm' will interfere with chi production, or waste it as the lower worm wastes jing. On this level emotions matter and reading between the lines from what you have said this would seem to be why you have 'middle worm' problems. It sounds to me that you are nice to people, you try to please your teachers by working hard and when they do not respond 'correctly', in other words just the way that you want them to respond, you become sullen and angry and go out and work out your anger in martial arts practice. Here your problem with false yin and yang creates a pattern that disperses and wastes your qi. Again it may also be a problem with an overheated liver, because people with overheated livers usually have hair-trigger tempers. If the heat becomes stagnant, they will be sullen, this is the fire scorching the liver. Since lungs are metal and should control the liver, then there are two things that naturally suggest themselves, righteous action and breathing exercises such as the six healing sounds to breath out liver heat. I will return to this later, after I have quickly discussed the 'third worm'. The 'third worm' causes problems with shen, which might be called 'consciousness potential', as long as one remembers that it is as misleading as calling qi 'energy' (much less 'bio-energy'!). In this case there may be insufficient qi to make shen for a variety of reasons, including that nasty second worm! However, in many ways it is wrong thinking that causes problems on this level. Many people deplete their jing and qi in the pursuit of pleasures believing such to be good in themselves and the only thing in life that matters, such people live lives not much different than animals and at death they are delivered to the 'Yellow Springs' by these two big dudes with animals heads, all the while half protesting, half wondering 'What did I do wrong! What did I do wrong?' Such people are greatly to be pitied. Their whole lives they had animal heads and they didn't even know it, and now it is too late. Now they are simply among their own kind. Here is where wrong thinking betrays you. A great sage once said we must be 'good for goodness sake' (yes, I know it's from a cheesy Christmas song, I won't even dignify it with the word carol, but as Whichcote said replying to Tuckney 'Truth is Truth, whosoever hath spoken itt' and no I didn't misspell 'itt', this is just 17th century English), we must also be nice for niceness sake. In any dealing with people you only have control over what you do and if you get angry because people are not nice back to you, is it because your niceness was not 'true' niceness, but a ploy to get a certain response from them? Do you regard 'do unto others, as you would have them do unto you', whether said by Jesus or by Mencius as some sort of magical formula or other type of manipulative strategy that will compel people to be nice to you? This is neither wise, the virtue of the liver, nor righteous the virtue of the lungs, and it is also false yin, of which I have already spoken. You are being like the 'meek and humble' Uriah Heep of David Copperfield, whose example I mentioned in the previous post, not a budding young sage. In all situations, without using guile or violence, the only person over whose actions you have any control is your own. When you can be 'nice for niceness sake', without any consideration of how other people respond to you, this is righteous action and you will be on the path of virtue. Eventually you will find that virtue is not only its own reward but the key to unlocking everything else, including wu wei which you say you are having so much difficulty with. Wu wei works well for sages and others on that level, in the mundane world by people not sufficiently advanced, it is not as effective as good manners and empathy, practiced with righteous intent, in other words for their own sake. I can hear people cringing at the word righteous, but to simply say 'right' intent is not strong enough, like true and false yin and yang, there is also true and false righteousness. Real righteousness is the flood-like qi of Mencius 2A2, which fills the whole space between Heaven and Earth, its root is right motivation, but the much abused English word righteousness is the only thing that does it justice. Readjusting your thinking and doing exercises such as the six healing sounds will help in time. If you have severe problems with liver fire blazing, herbs and acupuncture or massage can be applied to good effect by a knowledgeable practitioner. The book Between Heaven and Earth by Harriet Beinfield and Efrem Korngold is a good introduction to TCM and includes questionnaires for evaluating your own situation. I have been heartily recommending it for years. It is only a beginning, but a beginning is better than nothing. I hope that this is helpful to you, and again in complete sincerity, I wish you well.

White Tiger you are like a 12 cylinder racing engine that is so badly out of tune that it does nothing but make noise and slowly destroy itself. I said in my previous post that you can never balance the yin and yang that you are trying to balance, because they are false yin and yang. Here are two examples from your post on Monday: This is false yin, there is nothing humble about a person who would say: What arrogance, what presumption! What false yang! What have you ever done for any of your teachers that would make you worthy to know all 'the person has to teach', especially when you claim 'NOT to be much of a student/practioner'? What promise do you have for humanity, that any real teacher would take you on? Funny, my experience of students is that they use and abuse me for their own gain. They wheedle and cajole you, but in reality they are like meek and humble Uriah Heep, ready to turn on you, or abandon you, as soon as they believe that they can get away with it. I will not enter into details, but the danger spoken of about pearls and swine and being rent, is very real. I don't see how it could be otherwise. If I were to post something asking something of you, aren't I also left waiting until 'you decide to speak again'? Because I have been generous enough to take the time to make these posts, am I now at your beck and call? Are you at mine? I am generous enough to make these postings, enjoy your gift, but do not importune on my generosity too much. You have no idea how much time I have spent since Monday thinking about your situation, as expressed in your posts, as I understand it, when I should have been doing other things. Which brings us back to the beginning. I compared you to a 12 cylinder racing engine because I see great potential in your posts, but you really are badly out of tune. Because I see that potential, I will address your concerns about the 3 worms and your second dan in my next post. Then I will make a short response to Rain and finally I will return to my posts about demons. In complete sincerity I wish you well.

Thank you White Tiger, your courtesy amidst your distress indicates that you have the making of a true sage. Whether you realize it or not you are on the path of the junzi (君子, most commonly 'superior man', but better as Tu Wei-mings 'profound person' or even better as 'exemplary person', in Roth and Cleary). You need to realize this and determine with all your will to be a sage. This is no easy task and part of the pain and distress that you feel are the birth pangs of your nascent Jen (仁, humanity, benevolence=latin for good will). This old junzi honors your struggle and in complete sincerity (诚, sincerity, authenticity) bows before your nascent humanity. Thank you for appreciating my efforts on your behalf! My, how our young tiger roars! Yet how vast is his Humanity! How great is his good will!(仁, jen in both cases, but both meanings need to be emphasized) The yin and yang that you are trying to balance, can never be balanced because they are false yin and yang. To discover the mystery of true yang you must go deep into yin. Look at the symbol of Tai Chi, there deep within the yin, you see the yang, this is the yang which this is the yang with which you roar out when you say "I wish not to do that ever again!"! This is the fierce determination to cleave to the good and never falter. Realizing that that this is the direction to true yang, you must go deep within yourself, you must cultivate your good will and seek your Zhong (中, center) and then your true yang will transform your false yin into true yin and you will find the gentle strength that you seek. Since you are a martial artist I will speak in Tai Chi Boxing terms. To retreat when attacked is to fight yang with yin. Your center (zhong) is your true yang. Every attack creates the right retreat in those who understand the water way, Thus you must hold fast to the yin to find the correct retreat. Every attack opens up a weak spot, this is the yin at which you must strike. When you retreat correctly, you open the yin within the yang all attacks are met, and all opponents are defeated. I will leave you with this; There is much wisdom to be found in the Hexagrams 24, Fu/Return and 23, Po/Splitting apart (I take these from Wilhelm/Baynes which is readily at hand.) Both of these represent yang amidst the extreme of yin. Is not the Thunder of Return the echo of your own voice when you say, "I wish not to do that ever again!"? And as for the 23, the Junzi finds a chariot at the top (line 6) and who are these mysterious Court Ladies (line 5)? The Court Ladies are the Jade Maidens who serve Hsi Wang Mu, the Queen Mother of the West, the Chariot is to take you to her court where a Peach of Immortality is reserved for you if your are faithful to your path. Hitherto this has been a secret path, but I reveal it now specifically for your benefit, but hopefully others who may read this will benefit also. That is all for now. I was right to reply to your post, my effort has been well rewarded. Find your center, know peace and grow in your Humanity, for this is your true Heavenly Nature. Zhongyongdaoist

As I mentioned before, I am rummaging through the attic of a prodigious memory and dusting off research and the conclusions that I came to in the period of roughly 1975-85. Some parts of the story have been close to the front of this attic and are the Hellenic ingredients that became part of the Hellenistic milieu and how they contributed to the conception of 'demon', but one thing kept nagging at me and that was that one of the previous posts had mentioned the change of 'Deva' to 'devil'. I remembered that this predated Christianity and was the result of Persian uses that relate to Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians 'demonized' the 'devas' and the Indians demonized the 'ahura/asuras', tit for tat you might say. It is also to the Zoroastrians that we owe the notion of a conflict between 'good' and 'evil', and in particular the root of evil in the notion of 'the lie', which leads in Christianity to Satan as the father of lies. The most interesting thing during the Hellenistic period is the conflation of daimons as spirits related to generation and fertility with evil spirits, and the source of this, rather than being developing Christian orthodoxy, is the various Gnostic sects, to whom the created world and its creator were evil, and thus the daimons as agents of generation in the world were agents of evil. At this time I don't want to get into a long digression about gnosticism, but suffice it to say that if anyone can be viewed as the 'demonizers' of the Gods it was the gnostics and not the early Church as it was developing during the Patristic period. The Pagan Philosophers remained loyal to the old Gods practically to the end of the Hellenistic age and perhaps beyond, and some in the developing Church was only too anxious to use such sources as the Sibylline Oracles and the Hermetica as tools of conversion. One of the things that amazed me when I started seriously studying Plato in the early 1980s was how much of so called 'Christian' ethics had been cribbed from Pagan sources, in particular Plato. This is one of the reasons that Justin Martyr could think of Socrates as a pre-Christian Christian. He was a Platonist who converted to Christianity and he must have had passages like the following, the conclusion of Plato's Gorgias, in mind, '...you may let anyone despise you as a fool and do you outrage, if he wishes, yes, and you may cheerfully let him strike you with that humiliating blow...' (W. D. Woodhead translation, cited from The Collected Dialogues of Plato, Bollingen, 1980, p. 307). Sound familiar? Someone who was really being really 'cheeky' might even say to turn the other cheek. That is only one of many I could site and the 'Golden Rule' appears in the writings of one of Plato's professional rivals Isocrates (As well as in both Confucius and Mencius) and may even have been proverbial in Hellenic culture. The combination of these echoes of Pagan ethics in Jesus preaching (as well as Paul) and the need to proselytize among the educated classes would result in one of the most interesting myths that I have seen and it developed as a tool for the early Church to bolster its claim to being a 'universal', i.e. catholic church and this was the myth of the Ancient Theologians. The idea is that God revealed himself to man both through the 'his word' delivered to the Jews by Moses and the Prophets because of his covenant with Abraham, but also that the study of creation as had been done by the Pagans was a source of revelation. This gives two 'books', the 'word of God' given through the Prophets and also the book of Nature which reveals God through 'his creation'. The readers of this 'book of nature' were the 'ancient theologians' starting with Hermes Trismegistus (because the Hermetic writings were not dated correctly), followed by Orpheus, Zoroaster, Plato and Aristotle. It was this belief as well as the ethical similarities that allowed the Church to integrate large amounts of Stoicism and Platonism, as well as Pagan Cosmology, into its doctrines during the Patristic period. Since Pagan Cosmology during the Hellenistic period was strongly animistic and therefore the Planets were animated beings, i.e. the Gods and these Planetary Gods became assimilated to, if not identified with, the notion of Planetary Angels. This associations survive into modern European languages both as the names of the Planets and also as the names of the days of the week in Romance Languages, whereas in more Germanic based languages they are the Teutonic/Nordic equivalents. On the other hand the Planets and the Gods as part of the created cosmos that imprisoned human souls as envisioned by the Gnostics effectively demonized the Gods. So by the end of the Hellenistic period we have our concept of 'demon' more or less complete, its name comes largely from the Greek daimon, but its 'evil' nature as followers of the 'lie' comes from Zoroastrianism. Its association with sex and sexuality comes from the Philosophical traditions as they began to differentiate the various hierarchies of spiritual beings and survived into the middle ages as the incubbus and succubbus which were the Western equivalent of the fox spirits, or for that matter the marvelously malevolent tree spirit of 'A Chinese Ghost Story', (One of my favorite movies and because of its echoes of esoteric practices worthy of a commentary in its own right.), which fed on the vital energies of people, which populate Chinese lore. Next time we will look at the early Buddhist influence in China and see those demonized asuras, the distant cousins by the way of the Norse Aesir, and how they influence the development of the concept of 'demon' in China. Short bibliography: For Hermes Trismegisus and the ancient Theologians; see Frances Yates, Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition, especially the first part. For the assimilation of the Pagan Gods; see Jean Seznec The Survival of the Pagan Gods and John Block Friedman, Orpheus in the Middle Ages.

Well Stigweard thanks again for your interest, I hope some other bums are finding this interesting also, but it is not easy to write this. While the information is there somewhere in the cobweb strewn attic of my memory, I have to organize it in a good way and also try to keep digressions to a minimum, that is why I said at the beginning I would avoid any discussion of the ontological status of demons (worse than a can of worms, a veritable Peter's Pot sans Griders Hole, though no doubt haunted by the restless spirit of Mr. Grimethorpe), or any discussion of what may constitute good and evil (worse than Naraku's miasma). Your own comments about Constantine remind me that even he could not have pulled off his interesting little piece of Religious realpolitik without collaboration from both sides of the fence. Had the Stoic Posidonius not decided that Judaism was the living survivor of the 'ancient monotheistic religion' of which Greek and Egyptian religion were only the decadent descendants, or had Justine Martyr not claimed Socrates as a 'pre-Christian Christian', Eusebius would have had precious little material for his Praeparatio Evangelica, and then where would the Prisci Theologica be? I may have to do a digression on religious syncretism in the Hellenistic period in order to lay a foundation for the Christian contribution to the development of the concept of 'demon'. This would also have some bearing on your own question of the cultural morphing which you describe. And after all of the musty scholarly stuff, what must anyone who read looked at my introduction post 'Hello, they tell me I can do stand-up ...' think? Granted I did work in an oblique reference to Rocky and Bullwinkle in an earlier post, but so far only our esteemed web-master Sean has any idea of how funny I really can be. Oh well, my time will come, and then you will really realize why I often use the distressed looking gape-mouthed icon as part of my posts. Kind of my way of saying, 'Oh no, it's him again!'. Preview of coming installments: one or maybe two to finish out the Hellenistic developments and then a cross cultural look at the early Buddhist influence on Chinese ideas about 'demons'. I hope to have these up by Monday. Regarding my Neiye research I might start a thread on that or maybe write an article, perhaps a blog would be a good way to deal with it, in any case I think the other bums may find it more to their liking then this present exercise in intellectual aerobics, i.e. long winded hot air.

I've loved incense since I was a boy. I bought my first incense burner at Disneyland in the late 50s, they had some stores there that sold imported India brass and incense. I bought both and I would sit and watch the incense smoke rise up, first straight, and the billowing into clouds and dispersing throughout the room for hours. My first 'religious' experience was with incense. As a boy there was a shop where I grew up which imported from the Far East. It was run by two wonderful Jews from Germany whose whole families had been lost to the juggernaut of the Holocaust, but China had given them a home and they survived to bring a bit of oriental art into my hometown. The Wife was one of my Mother's best friends and so naturally I would often go to their store. There one day I picked some incense called 'Kuan Yin' and bought it and took it home. I read the literature which described 'Kuan Yin' as a Chinese Goddess of mercy. I decided that I liked that and I lit the incense. No sooner had I smelled it than I laid back and closed my eyes and went somewhere else, I know not where, but ever since then I have loved her and I know I always will. A rather strange experience for a ten year old round eye, circa 1960, don't ya think?

Thanks for your continued interest Stigweard. I am afraid that if I go over to the Magic thread that I may really start frothing at the mouth. As it happens I opened a can of worms here and I intend to deal with every wiggly little one before I am done. Maybe later I will wonder over to Magic, but frankly I am more interested in other things, such as the Neiye and the other Xin Shu texts of the Guanzi and their possible relation to the material in Charles Luk's Taoist Yoga.