Magda

I find that a very difficult topic. Moreso because you can't really know that you're doing things correctly, not in the beginning. I've been told in past that I think too much whenever I bring up this topic and that I should let go of the mind! In some sense it's true, but that goes for practicing, afterwards you can think a little, I'm sure, if only to decide that nothing went terribly awry. I think it's not really possible to avoid all effects and altered states, it's only possible to keep a neutral attitude towards them. Not believing in everything you see or hear, neither dismissing it to the point of consciously trying to suppress it. And because you can't tell what you experience from right or wrong in the beginning, it's even logical not to dwell on its value at all. It's useless, after all, if you can't know and have no means to tell. That creates a peaceful attitude for me, of letting anything happen on its own and not caring for what is going on much, not being focused on it. That reminds of the Kunlun and demons thread, so many people talking about their unnatural experiences there. Now maybe my perception is skewed and it's ok, but I don't think it's justified. A lot of time has to pass till you can tell something about such things for sure, before that they're nothing but mysterious illusions.

No need to apologize, of course I knew you were trying to help! Please do not misread my post as ungrateful complaining, I tried to make sure that it wouldn't be read like that, but failed. Depends on what you call relaxation. For all I know, I do have it, but I never try to relax forcefully. The word relaxation is misleading. It's a change of the mind, a real change, not a forceful relaxation when you pretend that you're relaxed physically and mentally, but in truth are not. Judging by some side-effects it works as it should. I'll use your invitation to PM about teachers.

Why? My frame of reference may be different, but it exists, as well as chi exists. If manipulating chi would be impossible within any other frame of reference rather than the buddhist one, then it would be a sign that chi doesn't exist on its own right, that it exists only for buddhists. There's no reason to think that energy work can't be used with another religion or thinking which may deal with self-change, too, or may not, unless you simply believe that buddhism is superior. Stopping is simple but useless, searching for teachers is not easy. Although I don't like to talk about it, I live in a country whose people are thought of as poor by Europeans or Americans. My options are limited. Do you think that if I had access to a real teacher I'd be asking for advise in a forum blindly? No knowledgeable people can be found in my city, and to travel distances is not financially possible. In this situation you can either give up or take risks consciously. If something bad eventually happens, so be it, but that doesn't mean that everything should take its own random course either.

Guys, please do not spam in the topic, there's a PM messaging system for personal talk! As for fibromyalgia, it can't be the case, the points that should hurt don't match mine, and there aren't as many of them either. Neither trigger points can be the case.

Hagar, I need to clarify that this kind of pain is not bearable. It's like touching hot coal, you instinctively push your hand away. If it's tension surfacing, then I don't know how to outwait it. Even though in past I did, it was not like that. I think you're talking about vipassana when you talk of tension going to the surface. That's not what I'm doing, I am actively manipulating how chi should flow, relaxation is not the main goal, neither is enlightenment.

No it wouldn't, I'd have to describe the pain and how it occurs, too, and I don't like doing that. It's not occruing normally and normal explanations don't fit it, so I really dislike doing that. Out of people to whom I described details previously, nobody knew how to deal with it, although two of them studied under famous masters. This makes me very sad, maybe it's rare, or maybe they aren't very exprienced and didn't deal with the problems of others with energy work that much. Famous masters don't make knowledgeable students autimatically. And how do I know who you are and that you know something? The quantity of forum posts doesn't signify that you know, neither your own belief that you know means that you know. Maybe you just want to talk theoretically, and I will torture myself here by describing everything in detail. You should at least give a hint about what you think, so I could decide whether it's worth it. Sorry but that's the only normal behavior in the forum when you have a problem, I'm not being annoying, I just know that the majority of people who write in various forums use a forum as a place for chatting and don't know anything. I asked for input as a matter of opinion because of that. So I could judge for myself, at least as far as my own understanding permits, or as far as your versions fit my specific case, after all, if they don't, then further discussion wouldn't make sense. On a side note, does anybody know how to contact somebody like an official teacher? There are no direct emails to get hold of, but only those that can be used to ask for your email to be given further to the master, and it doesn't work that well.

So how would you deal with it, to be able to continue?

No, open.

What is the explanation for pain during practice? Not from straining or awkward postures, but unnatural pain in spots of your body that shouldn't hurt. It only happens during practice and most of the time it ceases once it's over. In past I read somewhere (but can't remember the source) that it happens when you get better, that it should be normal. But I waited for enough time and made a conclusion that it wasn't going to stop. Besides, why does it stop when the practice is over, as if it was not something permanently happening from the possible changes but something confined to the practicing process only. In some other place I saw an article about chi-kung illness, that some people develop if they do it incorrectly, but I'm not sure whether it's confined to emotional problems only, or physical ones can be present, too. Anyway, I for sure did not see hallucinations that were said to accompany that illness, and neither had any emotional instability. I'd appreciate some help, please! There's no teacher around, unfortunately, to ask about it.

What do you mean by "baseless"? Kind of... not explainable?

Thank you for your input. It already contradicts the theory I've started to concoct for myself. But yours is good. And I think that endless thought machine, as you call it, is disregarded in vain. Those "lesser forms" who're free of it are considerably worse off then we are, in their "purity" they can't conceive of taking another path or self-change. They're without opportunities.

Yes, you definately do! I feel just the same as you described in your post. But I don't possess as much courage to discard all explanations and rush forward on my own. The thing is, if you rush forward on your own, you aren't doing it on your own no matter what. You use things that you've learnt somewhere to orient yourself and to judge what you're doing. There always are "hidden dogmas" that influence you. That makes me feel that complete dismissal of other "dogmas" is not only unnecessary, but can be harmful. What if your "hidden dogmas" are wrong beyond belief, but you'll stick to them stubbornly and become blind to obvious wrongness? That can't be good. A desire to continuously learn and discover mistakes is needed, I believe. For example, I had a time in my life when I started to have spontaneous "out-of-body experiences", and I had no idea that it was possible. So I assumed scary things about them before discovering that it's okay and no evil entities are doing it. If I did not, then probably I'd go to a doctor or Church, and the whole thinking would be different and the results would be different. Like trying an exorcism in case of Church or praying for evil entities to leave me alone. The change would've been enormous, the whole worldview would've had to be revampled to include religious ideas alien to it, and all that just because of OBEs that did not, in fact, involve any evil entities. Sometimes a wrong conclusion seems the most logical! Yes it must be like this... Something that exists independently of the mind that later gives its own various meanings to it. I wish I could experience knowing reality in such a way. Oh that's exactly how I feel now It's the thing that slows down practice. You seem to be analysis-oriented when it comes to feelings. What do you think produces the feeling that you described above? My own version is that it's a fear of making things wrong, but not of the process, but of the discovery of your mistake in future. As if such a discovery was emotionally unbearable to conceive of. I'd like to know your version and what you think of mine. Maybe then we could think up a way to trick this feeling together.

Thanx. I'm studying the link. The idea there that chakras and dan tiens are of a different nature entirely is surely interesting. It didn't occur to me. Such threads are both blessing and curse, though. I find it hard to trust people who never experienced real energy talk about it. It may be good enough, though, to quiet the mind on this topic for a while! Some links in that thread point to dubious places, like astral dynamics site. Basically you need to at least know that the person speaking ever practiced those few systems that are compared, in order for the words to carry some weight. If not, it's as good as any guess. But I guess it's okay. Anyway, all that is not about searching for definite truth, but about concocting a comfortable explanation that sounds convincing and puts the mind at ease. It's buddhist enlightenment that doesn't require any understanding of energy, other "enlightenments" might. Even tantric buddhism already employs energy manipulation. Well, I doubt that somebody could convince me by now that energy doesn't exist at all! The worst that can happen is that I start stupidly thinking that it's the magical will-force. All I want is to decide how various "energy-stuff" manages to be unnoticed by other systems, it's difficult to constantly dwell on that in surprise and annoyance. But you haven't said anything about yourself. What's you take on the issue, don't you find it hindering for your motivation? Edit: double posting didn't work, two posts became one. Separating them back again.

Hello all, I developed a recurring theme in my thoughts that I can't get rid of and it slows me down drastically. That is, the theme of unrealness and trickery. What I mean in general is that there are various religions, traditions, systems, and when I pick one and try to practice, there's this nagging thought that it contradicts others, and hence it might be bollocks. When contradiction is huge it doesn't matter, but it matters when you think of things that are very very alike. For example, chi kung and chinese medicine have no "chakras" that Indians have. Yet it's "the same thing", because it's the same level of "energy". SO HOW COME BODY ENERGY STRUCTURE IS DIFFERENT, how is it possible?! This issue prevents me from believing that there's something "real" behind the whole notion of energy, and I start thinking that chi must be an imaginary concept that somehow works in a way of trickery. That is, you trick yourself that there is something, but in reality you do everything without the help of chi, by something like will-force. That's an unhealthy attitude I realize. Yet I know of no way to get rid of it. I can pretend to believe, but mental pretense is never motivating. Who wants to put effort into a kind of practice that feels imaginary? I certainly want a real thing. Does anybody have an idea how to solve the situation? P.S. And if somebody had or has this very problem I'd be especially grateful to hear from you.

Hi Zhongyongdaoist, What do you mean by dried ginger, a ground ginger like a powder? The one from the lungs sounds like my case of depression, although I suppose it could be both lungs and liver, lol... I can remember all cases of being angry (sounds strange I know, but I think I remember all), because they were so rare Mostly I feel very guilty when angry and stop it, because if you're angry you're a bad person and all that. I see. It's a real shame that you started late when you problems grew, but at least you did start! If you were treating them with Western medicine or ignoring them, everything would become even worse. Thanx I'll be sure to try that one! But what do you mix it with, green tea? And what exactly does it do to liver\spleen? I need to know what I'm causing at least theoretically!