sean

darebak, I feel like I straddle two roles here, admin/moderator and regular member, so I prefer people think of me as just another member with my own issues unless I am specifically acting as a moderator. It can be a challenging position. I apologize if your intentions were truly to prevent people from getting hurt. Sean

WTF are you talking about? Do you even know? I said I was sick of being asked by members associated with David's group, including YOU, to delete posts and entire topics on this forum because you get your feathers ruffled by their contents. And this is precisely because I am interested in allowing a complete view here, even if that view is not approved by your central authorities. Sean

No, not at all nutting, it's a perfectly legitimate question, that is what this forum is here for. It's just whenever there is a topic about David or related Taoist groups I get asked to delete the topic for weird reasons. I don't ever do so, I am just a little jaded about it. Carry on. Sean

*Setting watch* Countdown to me being asked to delete this topic because it offends sacred immortal masters beyond my comprehension that are concerned with how they are perceived on obscure internet discussion forums. Sean

Sorry, didn't notice this first time around. I just made a subforum for your journal. Sean

Nice report man, great to hear from you and see you back on the forum here. Sean

I just wrote him last night, I am going to organize all these questions into a coherent interview format and send to him this week. Great to see you over here again.

Yeah, you only get access to the journals after you join and make a Lobby post. The idea it that they are a little more private.

Yes, I think we are playing with words mostly, I don't think we fundamentally disagree. Though I think my unconscious slip talking about a monk "indulging in precious pleasurable developments" and yours talking about a monk that should "not pay attention to physical sensations" probably highlights a shadow in each of our practices or at least to how we philosophize about this stuff. Sean

Mantis you said, quote, "they are constantly reminded to not pay attention to physical sensations and they live a very bland life". I think you are also misinterpreting my point. I am simply say, indulgence exists, compulsions occur. These are facts and monks are not automatically free of these attachments simply because they enter a monastery and take a vow. They have to work through them like anyone. I suggest that the process looks very much like indulgence-dissatisfaction-evolution for them as well, the key difference being, as you said, mindfulness. This is what makes Buddhism arguably a faster path then just letting nature take it's course. Regardless, I believe we are all perfected through time eventually, and this is a historically Taoist view. The alcoholic will eventually become wise (or die), even without a mindfulness practice, because the alcohol will eventually prove so deeply unsatisfying, something less painful will be chosen. The wonderful thing about reality is that the truth is less painful and requires less effort than delusion. Sean

I've never heard of a meditative discipline that constantly reminds it's students to not pay attention to physical sensations. Can you give me an example of this? Sean

I think we are treading into an age old hedonism vs. asceticism debate here. I suggest that conscious indulgence, really even unconscious overindulgence, can lead to a direct perception of unsatisfactoriness which in turn can awaken a very natural renunciation of compulsion. Now the specifics of how this plays out may vary wildly, but I would argue that this indulgence-dissatisfaction-evolution cycle is at the heart of progress even in a monastic setting. I imagine a monk indulging in precious pleasurable developments in meditation over and over and over and over until the unsatisfactoriness is finally seen through and the mind moves on. Seeing human beings as possessing an overall hedonistic temperament is perhaps closer to human nature, and the whole arc of spiritual seeking and evolution can be seen as increased desire for deeper and more sustainable pleasure ultimately climaxing in an unspeakable (non)resolution. Sean

Wow, very very interesting. Good to know, thanks. Sean

Whoah dude. Really weird, I was going to post a link to this same site today. Pretty interesting guy. Sean

I've been listening to the audio clips over there the last few weeks, really good stuff, Master Yang seems like a very competent teacher. Congratulations, and welcome to The Tao Bums. Best, Sean

Wu Yuen Gong, you are trolling and this is warning #1.5. Sean

Sarcasm and passive aggression. Two of my least favorite qualities. Sean

I love bunny Cam, he is so fluffy. And he figured out how to embed Youtube!

Is the bunny avatar, or some variation of it, coming back? I feel like the bunny avatar is coming back. Things were so much simpler in those days. *sigh* Sean

Take your seat and prepare thyself for the Gospel of Frank. For whatever reason, the Professor Brother has decided to testify to his American history class about that magical carpenter from Nazareth. [superd]D81F2344BF5AC7BBBD38674A8E7DFA7B8FE5B94EE9697AAD[/superd]

Here you go: del.icio.us/somlor Two and a half years of insanity, updated almost daily. Yes Daniel is an interesting trip, he is really big on insight practice to avoid getting stuck in bliss, a common Buddhist warning. He claims to be basically enlightened, at least to level of Arahat in Therevadan tradition which loves to map these sorts of things out really explicitly. Sean

Ian, 1) Please elaborate on your perspective that the body does not want sex, that is very foreign to me. Is sexual urge not largely an animal instinct for reproduction? 2) My phrasing was poor and (you may be right) possibly even dangerously misleading. It's not that desire can be satisfied by full indulgence, it's that a nearly unavoidable opportunity to see without a doubt the unsatisfactoriness inherent in even the wildest fulfillment of your deepest fantasies is provided. hahha. Perhaps this can be achieved more safely on the cushion, I am not sure -- seems that life sometimes insists on "external alchemy". 3) I believe (and hope) my sense of relative freedom around sexual compulsiveness was derived precisely to the degree I stopped objectifying women and projecting fantasies on them and moved toward exploring the treatment of sex, or perhaps more accurately -- naked intimacy -- with women as natural, joyous, and sacred. Sean

Xeno, regarding a possible mechanism for bliss leading to enlightenment, there are ecstatic traditions in most religions, though they do tend to be fringe. Spontaneous shaking, seething, writhing practices also abound in "primitive" shamanic traditions as well, including American Christianity (found predominately in arguably less educated and more tribal south). There is canonical (Pali) support to the belief that it is through progressive absorption into deeper and deeper states of bliss, ie: the jhanas (ecstatic joy), one can become enlightened. This approach is admittedly in marked contrast to the way Buddhism seems to be typically taught, at least in my limited experience, where the jhanas are considered at best a foundational practice to be skillfully abandoned for wisdom cultivating insight practice before they become addictive sensual diversions. But for more on ecstatic Buddhism, see the the many articles over at Great Western Vehicle. Note that I am not sold on any of this, just offering information on how Kunlun might operate. Michael, in my opinion enlightenment is a very real possibility with fairly straightforward steps laid out by many accessible, living enlightened teachers. I think the taboo against speaking about personal realization of enlightenment (not to mention the linguistic paradoxical messiness of such a claim) is a hindrance to personal motivation, because it makes people think that enlightenment is a one in a million shot, when I believe there are many enlightened humans on the planet, barely noticeable as they often maintain very ordinary lives among us. Sean