sean

I dunno, I've found the Pre/Trans Fallacy to be a very relevant thing to contemplate and I think it helps avoid the two common pitfalls it describes. That is, writing off all experiences that seem illogical to you as being mere infantile regression, which the mainstream often does, vs. glorifying any rejection of logic as "genius", which the fringe and avante garde often does.

Not at all. Great post Neimad. Sean.

My favorite is his work elaborating on the Pre/Trans fallacy. From: http://www.praetrans.com/en/ptf.html The essence of the pre/trans fallacy is itself fairly simple: since both prerational states and transrational states are, in their own ways, nonrational, they appear similar or even identical to the untutored eye. And once pre and trans are confused, then one of two fallacies occurs: In the first, all higher and transrational states are reduced to lower and prerational states. Genuine mystical or contemplative experiences, for example, are seen as a regression or throwback to infantile states of narcissism, oceanic adualism, indissociation, and even primitive autism. This is, for example, precisely the route taken by Freud in The Future of an Illusion. In these reductionistic accounts, rationality is the great and final omega point of individual and collective development, the high-water mark of all evolution. No deeper or wider or higher context is thought to exist. Thus, life is to be lived either rationally, or neurotically (Freud's concept of neurosis is basically anything that derails the emergence of rational perception - true enough as far as it goes, which is just not all that far). Since no higher context is thought to be real, or to actually exist, then whenever any genuinely transrational occasion occurs, it is immediately explained as a regression to prerational structures (since they are the only nonrational structures allowed, and thus the only ones to accept an explanatory hypothesis). The superconscious is reduced to the subconscious, the transpersonal is collapsed to the prepersonal, the emergence of the higher is reinterpreted as an irruption from the lower. All breathe a sigh of relief, and the rational worldspace is not fundamentally shaken (by "the black tide of the mud of occultism!" as Freud so quaintly explained it to Jung). On the other hand, if one is sympathetic with higher or mystical states, but one still confuses pre and trans, then one will elevate all prerational states to some sort of transrational glory (the infantile primary narcissism, for example, is seen as an unconscious slumbering in the mystico unio). Jung and his followers, of course, often take this route, and are forced to read a deeply transpersonal and spiritual status into states that are merely indissociated and undifferentiated and actually lacking any sort of integration at all. In the elevationist position, the transpersonal and transrational mystical union is seen as the ultimate omega point, and since egoic-rationality does indeed tend to deny this higher state, then egoic-rationality is pictured as the low point of human possibilities, as a debasement, as the cause of sin and separation and alienation. When rationality is seen as the anti-omega point, so to speak, as the great Anti-Christ, then anything nonrational gets swept up and indiscriminately glorified as a direct route to the Divine, including much that is infantile and regressive and prerational: anything to get rid of that nasty and skeptical rationality. "I believe because it is absurd" (Tertullian) - there is the battle cry of the elevationist (a strand that runs deeply through Romanticism of any sort). Freud was a reductionist, Jung an elevationist - the two sides of the pre/trans fallacy. And the point is that they are both half right and half wrong. A good deal of neurosis is indeed a fixation/regression to prerational states, states that are not to be glorified. On the other hand, mystical states do indeed exist, beyond (not beneath) rationality, and those states are not to be reduced. For most of the recent modern era, and certainly since Freud (and Marx and Ludwig Feuerbach), the reductionist stance toward spirituality has prevailed - all spiritual experiences, no matter how highly developed they might in fact be, were simply interpreted as regressions to primitive and infantile modes of thought. However, as if in overreaction to all that, we are now, and have been since the sixties, in the throes of various forms of elevationism (exemplified by, but by no means confined to, the New Age movement). All sorts of endeavors, of no matter what origin or of what authenticity, are simply elevated to transrational and spiritual glory, and the only qualification for this wonderful promotion is that the endeavor be nonrational. Anything rational is wrong; anything nonrational is spiritual. Spirit is indeed nonrational; but it is trans, not pre. It transcends but includes reason; it does not regress and exclude it. Reason, like any particular stage of evolution, has its own (and often devastating) limitations, repressions, and distortions. But as we have seen, the inherent problems of one level are solved (or "defused") only at the next level of development; they are not solved by regressing to a previous level where the problem can be merely ignored. And so it is with the wonders and the terrors of reason: it brings enormous new capacities and new solutions, while introducing its own specific problems, problems solved only by a transcendence to the higher and transrational realms. Many of the elevationist movements, alas, are not beyond reason but beneath it. They think they are, and they announce themselves to be, climbing the Mountain of Truth; whereas, it seems to me, they have merely slipped and fallen and are sliding rapidly down it, and the exhilarating rush of skidding uncontrollably down evolution's slope they call "following your bliss." As the earth comes rushing up at them at terminal velocity, they are bold enough to offer this collision course with ground zero as a new paradigm for the coming world transformation, and they feel oh-so-sorry for those who watch their coming crash with the same fascination as one watches a twenty-car pileup on the highway, and they sadly nod as we decline to join in that particular adventure. True spiritual bliss, in infinite measure, lies up that hill, not down it.

Yeah, this is outrageous. Must be a glitch. Because I don't think it even counts anonymous browsers, just logged in members. And there are only 70 something members total.

Chat was a blast! So glad that so many of you could make it. I haven't quite figured out how to save a transcript yet, but I think it's possible. Also I would like to inform participants if a chat will be logged beforehand. Hopefully this week I can figure it out though, so we can post our next chat and people who couldn't make it can peep in on the fun. Sean.

... What time on Sunday works for you?

Your welcome MatthewQi, it is truly my pleasure! I believe 1PM PST is 3PM in Chicago.

It seems like a lot of you are finding the forum overwhelming and difficult to navigate. One of the things I'm doing is looking into ways of making topic-lists viewable in threaded mode both in regular and also in Lo-Fi mode (great idea Max!). I hope everyone knows that currently posts are already viewable in theaded mode. I really should have explained this right away. If you look up at the top right of any thread, you'll see an option called Outline. Click it will switch you to a threaded view. Trunk also made a great suggestion today that I can implement immediately if you think it's a good idea. Basically, the idea is to scrap the "News and Announcements" forum completely (moving the posts to Taoist Discussion, and then making "Taoist Discussion" syndicate to the home page (www.thetaobums.com). I also thought it would be cool to put the "Latest Blog Entries" feed on the front page as well. This removes at least a little bit of unnecessary complexity and let's people easily get a scoop on the latest Taoist Discussion posts and Blog entries right on the front page. I'd like to know what your thoughts about this idea are before proceeding. Thanks, Sean.

LOL!

WMV's are a pain in the ass to convert. But I managed to half-way decently convert the movie to a DivX avi, so anyone else having trouble with the WMV, PM me and I'll give you a link to the movie. I'd post it but it'd kill my bandwidth in fifteen minutes.

Definitely on it's way. I just have to beta-test a few different options. It should be installed here by next week though. Will be very fun.

I've been looking into it with no luck yet.

Sorry, I unpinned it because I haven't figured out how to unpin it from the homepage and it seemed kind of annoying having it stuck on the homepage posts. I'll pin it back.

Wait, so both of you were in the chat but couldn't see each other? Hmmm... Lezlie and I have gotten it to work ok, and also Lezlie and Ron have chatted in there (about God knows what ).

Great post. Liber Resh vel Helios is also one of the rituals I really enjoyed when doing ceremonial magick. I like your adaptation, especially of the mudras and it's nice how you elaborated the mindset to adapt in each phase. Check out my post last month where I scanned Donald Michael Kraigs mudra variation from "Modern Magick".

I enjoy this practice also. You may find this article interesting: http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/HLB...tm#DatingQiGong

Oh, what I meant was that they are not visible unless you click to view them. Sorry. There should really be an "expand all comments" option.

Jessica, nice to see you back. I'm happy to hear that the "Individual Practice Discussion" forum resonates with you so well. I'm also glad the forum-based journals are back. To fill you in, the difference between the "Individual Practice Discussion" forum and the "Blog" feature is that the "IPD" is a forum-style journal, just like this topic, which makes it more of an open free-for-all discussion that can be easily navigated and read. The Blog-feature, on the other hand, is a bit isolated from the forums and has each blog-owner posting separate entries with user comments hidden by default. So member interaction with a person's blog gets somewhat buried and open discussion feels a bit stifled by this. Now you have a choice on which format you want to use. The way I intend to use them is to post insights about my practice in my "IPD" topic, whereas I will probably use my Blog for repetitive aspects of my training, like my food/exercise journal; in other words as more of a personal way of tracking things for myself. I'm looking forward to seeing the writings you have to contribute since I already enjoy reading your posts here a lot. Don't worry about Contributed Articles. It won't be removed without something in it's place to host articles. Right now I am loooking into how a wiki might work for creating a sort of "TaoBums Handbook" that distills information generated from discussion here on the forums. It would also allow anyone to submit their own articles. Not sure if this is the direction we'll go yet though, so Contributed Articles will stay for now. Excellent points about the Lending Library. I'd actually already taken it out (and moved the posts to Taoist Discussion) as the consensus seemed to be that it was so inactive it should just get trashed. But something definitely should be put in it's place for the reasons you mentioned. Perhaps the Wiki can also be used to store a list of materials available for lending and which are in circulation. I'll look into this more. I'm glad you like the new format and I couldn't agree more with your closing points regarding complexity. Thanks for your helpful insights. Sean.

I saw that a ways back on Sonnon's forum. That guy... errr, I mean Trunk you are un-fucking-believable. LOL! I'll dig up his site if you are interested. He has a video of a battle on there that is also incredible. Did you ever check out this one? http://content.collegehumor.com/media/movi...daynight3-1.wmv ... also pretty cool. Sean.

Yeah I know. I've been pondering the same thing. I think I will use my Blog in the future the way Lezlie is doing, to log boring repetitive shit like food and exercise journals. Whereas I'll use the Practice Discussion forum to discuss parts of my practice I have questions or insights about.

But Ronnie, I think we are looking for a way to start condensing and crystallizing the knowledge here at TaoBums. I'd like to get something workable in place soon and I'm coming around to the idea that perhaps a Wiki is a better approach than the "Contributed Articles" section. My intention isn't to create a huge, dedicated Tao-Wiki-Portal or anything so the TaoBums Wiki won't be stepping on your toes ... it just seems like a decent solution for sifting gems out of the posts here and building a TaoBums Handbook basically (that was my favorite as well, Trunk). But when Pietro and you get your Wiki up, let's definitely talk about mirroring and syndication and link backs and all that fun stuff then. Sean.

One thing I'm planning on doing soon is installing l a "shout box" so people can invite other members into the chat room. That way it doesn't always have to be planned, you can just notice someone else is online and yell at them that you want to chat.

Great post Ron. Thank you for taking even more time to gently wack into my thick skull finallly the value of a Wiki here. I've doing a great deal of research looking into a good Wiki solution that can make us all happy... hopefully something that can be integrated with the forum member database later on down the road. I think we really need to think about security issues. Perhaps Wiki editing priveleges should be given by request only. Or it could be linked to post count. Or whatever, I'm just thinking of the top of my head here. In any case, I will also probably feel the need to setup a "cron job" to backup the entire Wiki every 6-12 hours "just in case". On a lighter note, I just want to say that I hate the word "Wiki" for some stupid reason. Can we think of a better title for the "Wiki" section. Here are some possibilities I thought up, but obviously feel free to suggest others: Tao Bums Bible Tao Bums Compendium Tao Bums Encyclopedia Tao Bums Handbook Tao Bums Lexicon Tao Bums Magazine Tao Bums Manual Tao Bums Opus Tao Bums Reader Let's boil it down to like five or six max and then vote. Sean.

I've been rethinking this whole thing and trying to figure out a solution to allow just that, because it's an awesome concept. Would you mind bringing your feedback on this to the Regarding Forum Complexity thread? Particularly what the advantages a Wiki have over a Contributed Articles section? I'm really open to your feedback on this, and willing to swallow my Wiki-phobia if necessary and put it back in the top-header links. Cheers! Sean.

Hey Ron, it definitely started as a continuation and anyone from the old or newly revived HT is more than welcome to post here. The thing is, there were a lot of members from the old HT that came here when it crashed and not all of them made infeasable co-ownership ultimatums. You, for example, expressed appreciation from the beginning at TaoBums-as-gift. I've been patiently interacting with this community for months, looking for people I felt were suited to handle more responsibilities. Believe it or not, Pietro was actually at the top of my list, at one point, of people I had in mind as potential future-admins. But in my subjective experience he became pushy and overly-argumentative and eventually flat out slanderous which are not qualities anyone wants in an admin. This doesn't have to be dramatic though. And it's not either-or. Pietro can still post here whenever, and I hope I am allowed the same freedom on his latest experiment. I sincerely wish the best for him and his team in their new endeavors and hope they are practicing the Inner Smile on my heart as frequently as I am on theirs. Sean.