Apech

With the Labour party is disarray also - I guess we are more or less lost. Cameron has to address the EU Summit on Tuesday - pity his speech writer. 'We're leaving but I'm not announcing we're leaving, the crispy duck was delicious, thank you very much and goodnight'

Ha ha very good. What I think about a second referendum is that it is a dumb idea - slightly dumber than the original referendum. But it does at least express a kind of demand - and that is Parliament get your fucking act together. Which is the point really because the petition can only cause a debate in Parliament which is really (given that we have a Parliamentary Democracy) where these debates are supposed to take place. And the subject of the debate is - what is our plan of withdrawal? how do we remove ourselves from the EU with a minimum of disruption and with a stable economic future. What's the best way of going about that? Any ideas?

Correct.

There is no plan - they didn't expect to win. That's why Boris looks pale and shocked.

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyFT2Q_WpicA7BZfiTSzjtg

Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Thank you Gatito I was going to link to this fine article. Also to note ... the petition about a second referendum was started by a Leave campaigner when he thought they were going to lose. Ha ha. So much for all the comments about bad losers on the Remain side. Just so - what I always said .... where's the post Leave plan??????

The trouble is that the UK has, since the 1980's been busy selling off all its public assets and also many of its valuable private assets to the likes of Saudi oil sheiks and Russian oligarchs - it has allowed its manufacturing base to decline and relies on financial services to drive the economy. Banking and Finance are globalist. The idea that somehow the UK can persist as a private little sceptre'd isle is just a dream.

You can really tell that the people on this thread know what Rigpa is all about.

Mahamudra teaches that the enlightened mind (dharmakaya) and the ordinary mind are not different - although this is meant in a subtle sense and not the simplistic sense of 'oh they're just the same thing'. Jax's video is actually quite good as an explanation. There's a tendency to mystify these things and he is taking it back to a very simple direct approach - which is appropriate. Where I would vary with the interpretation that you don't need the gradual training is that although this is true in an absolute sense - when the experience of the dharmakaya ripens it is not dependent on having done anything like a method to get there. Nevertheless we all know from our own perspective that the helpful aspects of the dharma - the guidance on conduct, the way to develop bodhicitta and so on are what we need - and this is the reason even great Dzogchen teachers like Norbu still talk about the rest of the path - as in his video Introduction to Dzogchen where he starts by talking about the 4 Noble Truths. However rigpa - the natural state - is not dependent on these things as causes and conditions of realisation other wise it would be just another conditioned experience. So you takes your choice - whether to follow the way taught by 99% of teachers which is both gradual and sudden together - or alternatively chuck the gradual part and just sit. Its up to you! It is also a waste of time critiquing other practitioners to see if their practice is wrong or right - let them get on with it and do your own thing. My thoughts only of course.

I was speculating this morning whether this would force Germany and France (plus Belgium and others) into actual federal union - to protect their 'vision' of the future of Europe. This would leave the peripheral countries in a single market with weak ties to the centre. I can't see the Iberian countries joining in - and the Eastern bloc is in a different relation entirely. In some ways - the reason the EU developed in the way it did is because the underlying plan of federal union was not realised. Had it been then I suspect better democratic processes might have been put in place. It is really an over ambitious plan which stumbled and (possibly) fell. Just a thought.

I see Martin Schultz the President of the Euro Parliament wants us out as quickly as possible ... so it's 'don't go, don't go ... oh fuck off then!' - they are an arrogant bunch of twats when it gets down to it.

Do you teach within his organisation? And could you explain a little more what Dzogchen Semde actually is, thanks.

Boris, if that is indeed who our new leader is to be, has his work cut out to hold this together. I understand Jeremy Corbyn is to have a vote of no confidence against him. Which is not surprising given his referendum (non) performance. We could see a whole repositioning of the political parties.

Here's what the Scottish leader has to say :

That's what you think ... in Europe it's a distinct possibility.

Lets do it again ... it's been such fun https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

I'm holding you personally accountable

Cameron is announcing to resign by October!!! This is good news.

On a personal level congratulations Karl - I know you worked hard for this - I hope, and my fingers are crossed that this works out well. I don't welcome this decision and don't think a referendum should have happened. But given that it has happened all my thoughts are for that dream of an independent, democratic and free UK to come to be.

It was a posted comment to an article so no I can't give you a name. PS. Comment by Mr. Europe on this article: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/23/pound-and-ftse-100-rally-as-city-expects-remain-vote

I've worked as a Poll Clerk and Presiding Officer and one thing they hammer home is electoral fraud and 'personation' - which means pretending to be someone else to vote for them - is punishable with a hefty jail sentence. One of the times I did it the Presiding Officer closed the polling station bang on 10 pm. (by his watch) and a couple of people turned up late and were turned away. The resulting enquiry and grilling I got was scary in the extreme even though it wasn't my responsibility. I'm not saying there are never informalities or that voter fraud is non-existent but I would say it is very small scale and both the Returning Officers and the Police are on the spot watching whats going on.

Well, it always works the way you describe. In the case of challenge about electoral fraud individual ballot papers can if necessary be checked back to the voter so they can say which way they voted. If there is no challenge the ballot papers are sealed away for a number of years and then destroyed (I think its 12 years). But the UK rejected ID cards which is the method in the rest of Europe - where you need both ID card and voting registration number (which can be obtained online) to vote.