Apech

So you voted for Tony Blair! Well.

What's the point?

I thought you'd like it.

I third it.

No, no, no stay home put your feet up, job well done.

Looks like you are winning Karl: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/13/eu-referendum-leave-campaign-takes-six-point-lead-in-guardianicm-polls

Me!? I am above politics.

Clear skies are a jolly good thing.

I didn't call you an ignorant hick. I just thought that your comment on the Spanish Civil war did not seem to indicate that you had read up on it. It is enormously complex and people fought on both sides for a variety of reasons. Rather like the American Civil war to reduce it to a single issue is a mistake. For one thing the Spanish Republic was democratically elected through the popular vote - while Franco and his associates staged a military coup. So if Brexit is anything to do with the preservation of democracy over muscle then you seem to be on the wrong side. It is a short book given the subject.

Obviously you have not studied the Spanish Civil war in any depth. I can recommend this short book if you wish to understand it's complexities https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Spain-Spanish-Civil-1936-1939/dp/014303765X/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465745199&sr=1-2&keywords=spanish+civil+war

No.

Sure - already have.

No man is an island, Entire of itself, Every man is a piece of the continent, A part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less. As well as if a promontory were. As well as if a manor of thy friend's Or of thine own were: Any man's death diminishes me, Because I am involved in mankind, And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. John Donne

@dustybeijing, Phew - thanks for that very detailed and referenced post. A lot of good points there. I think the recent 'crisis' with the influx of people from the middle east has confused the picture with regard to the free movement and labour within the EU - which is of course designed to allow people greater opportunities for work and businesses better opportunities to build a workforce. Over a period of time this will show an ebb and flow according to the economic activity in different areas - much as would happen within a country where people move North to South or whatever to get a better job. This kind of effect is very noticeable here - where many Portuguese go to France or Holland say to work or sometimes build a business and return 'rich' and invest locally. There are issues around pressure on local services sometimes and with the effect of driving down pay - but I think that mainly this is the fault of both national and local politicians first denying the issue then blaming the 'other'. If we stopped trying to live in the past and just addressed the problems in a rational and logical manner by looking ahead and doing a little planning then even these effects could be offset. I am hoping a strong remain vote will make us wake up to reality and start to manage things properly. Speaking of the past - and references to 'empire' and the rest - history teaches us that we largely (ignoring Elizabethan pirating exploits) gained a empire by winning the Seven Years War. We won this war because we had a modern parliamentary system and defeated the French through superior administration and logistics. The French being still stuck in a moribund aristocratic way of doing things. This then allowed expansion through trade - which was actually a side effect of the industrial revolution (we needed raw materials and new markets) coupled with massive population explosion in western Europe in the late 18th and 19th centuries. In other words empire arose because of macro social and technological changes. It was only much later that we started preaching about superiority and 'spreading' civilisation as a kind justification after the fact. And we behaved quite badly because of this sense of superiority - and this behaviour lingers on. Any argument about Brexit which relies on the echoes of our great past and our inherent differences is really a fantasy because the causes and conditions of that past no longer apply.

Don't you live in Alaska - or have I misremembered?

That's close to ad hominem. Your arguments are all appeal to emotion and dark threats of conspiracy. No wonder you didn't convince.

I had this problem all yesterday - Mac Mini using Vivaldi - it wasn't a cache problem because I tried Safari and also checked if web site was down using http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com . Is it possible we are experiencing Denial of Service attacks? or is it a software fault because the site needs upgrading.

Hey guys I have come up with a solution - we could just relocate!

Hating Neil Kinnock is easy. Anyone can do it. You don't need the Daily Mail's encouragement.

Unlike our friends here - I see the UK itself as its own enemy. The nanny state, the surveillance state and the intrusion into individual and family life - it is far, far worse in England (I can't say for Scotland or Ireland of course) than anything I have seen anywhere in Europe. Many things are routinely blamed on Europe, such as health and Safety legislation (which the British invented! just look up the dates of the first Factory Acts and so on). If anything happens to anyone in England they immediately want government action and a law against 'it'. In fact I see the whole Brexit thing as a distraction from our own self harming.

I couldn't get in the site all day yesterday. SQL error message. There is a very real fear of the loss of the values of individual liberty and equality under the law. We should worry about it continually.

WTF!

If they pass statute - that's what they are there for. English law is not just common law.

I've already answered it - as the EU is based on treaties between sovereign nations. How the UK choses to operate that sovereignty is within the gift of the crown (i.e. in effect Parliament).