Apech

They certainly understood composition. Many beautiful examples - thank you.

Technically the term British Law is meaningless.

because you've elected Hillary without meaning to?

The European Union is not a federal state and has not achieved political union. A treaty designed to set this in process was defeated.

Invalid argument .... that's about right.

I think the lack of a convincing plan - plus the absence of a convincing leader who could make it work is a perfectly valid point. If it is really so obvious and clear that we would be better off - then it shouldn't be difficult to make budget projections. the reason they won't is because they know the economy will take a hit - at least in the short term.

The polls suggest young people are more remain and old people more leave. What's wrong with my opinion????

According to aliens Marblehead visits their planet.

Do you wish to leave the union then?

I didn't mean you - I meant those leading the campaign i.e. Gove, IDS, Boris and Farage.

@Chang and Karl, I thought it a backhanded compliment to call you lions led by donkeys but if you don't like it fair enough. I think to propose a radical change (i.e. Brexit) you do owe it to those who you wish to lure over to your side some kind of plan for the future. There isn't one. Its as if Brexit is some kind snake oil cure-all. leave and everything will be alright again. Its daft. And the leaders of your campaign could have come up with something at least in expectation of the question. I think Dodgy Dave is insipid and brainless if you wish to know. We shouldn't be having a referendum at all in my opinion.

I can get Sky (not)News here ... I call it (not)News because while all the other news networks report important things happening in the world, SkyNews seems to be obsessed by things like obesity in babies or pictures of the Queen (doing nothing interesting but wearing a hat). Anyway they had a debate with Michael Gove trying to defend the 'Leave' position. He was given a spectacularly hard time over 'lying' about the 350m a week we are supposed to pay to the EU and also one gentleman from the audience asked him what the economic plan post Brexit was. Obviously the answer was waffle. In fact it wasn't even waffle - there just wasn't anything you could call an answer. I was very pleased to see that I'm not the only one to ask this. It seems to me the leave campaign is 'lions led by donkeys' ... despite the fact that I will vote remain I would dearly love to hear the grand vision of an independent UK free from rhetoric, xenophobia and other tripe.

Wot?

Yes good point.

I don't think Ferdinand and Isabella were well known for their appeasement.

Ok I thought you were quoting percentages. When I lived in Manchester I would say that the 'asian' population who were majority muslim but also Hindu were one of the key driving forces in the commercial life of the city. Particularly in retail/wholesale sales. There was clearly quite a large middle class growing in that community which had high expectations for its children. It would be very surprising to find support for terrorism or extremism in that community I think. Where the difference lies perhaps is when there is secular challenge to muslim ideas. There is a big difference to the reaction to criticising Jesus and Mohammed. One of which could lead you into deep trouble. I think that the understandable wish to avoid reprisals and so on - has led politicians to mouth the 'religion of peace' idea - without understanding that there is a connection between what it says in the Koran and the actions of ISIS for instance. They use scripture to justify their acts. And in the absence of vigorous challenge this is worrying.

Yes I was lucky enough to meet Lama Jampa (before he was a Lama) when a student at Manchester University. So established a connection with him then but did not really follow the Buddhist path myself until years later. He became Dharma Regent for his root guru Karma Thinley Rinpoche and established a centre in Manchester which was very popular with students. At that time (70's and 80's) many great teachers such as 16th Karmapa and Kalu Rinpoche visited and gave teachings. Later an affinity with Sakya Buddhism and H. H: Sakya Trizin developed and Lama Jampa established centres based on Sakya teachings as well in Bristol and London. To me he has become as if he is the living breathing dharma itself. I don't mean this in the sense of worship or overblown reverence but simply as a fact. He is someone in whom one can have total confidence that you will receive teachings free of any interference from personality cultism and so on. He teaches very traditionally with Shedras on specific texts and initiations and so on - and places a lot of emphasis on samaya vows and personal conduct (which is not so popular these days). The reason I like your thread is because his teaching includes quite a strong emphasis on Zhentong Madhyamaka - which I find to be a very powerful and attractive tradition. I don't know about another thread on 'the essence of thoughts is dharmakaya' ... perhaps some related subject ... I will think on it

15% very strongly and 23% fairly strongly sympathetic to extremism is still scary.

Yes clearly the tension is between western secularism and political Islam (the desire to establish a Caliphate run by Sharia Law). Its an odd but thoroughly logical fact that the freedoms we have to discuss on here all kinds of views, including a full range of religious views, is guaranteed by the secular state - the best example being the US Constitution. Despite what admiration some of us may have for Sufism for instance, there is no doubt that islam uniquely takes the 'mono' approach of the Abrahamic religions to a new level. For me integration into our culture is not even the point, since for instance Hassidic Jewish communities in our great cities do not integrate much - but live peaceably amongst us - as do groups like the Amish and so on. So I don't even insist on people adopting my values, clothing and so on - but I do insist that they don't aggressively hate us and what we stand for. They can build mosques if they want but I don't want them burning books or shooting cartoonists. It would seem that this interpretation of Islam far from being a minority view is now amongst teachers and scholars of the religion the majority view. And while it is a minority who commit acts of terror - and very often the foot soldiers in this respect are converted petty criminals and the like - there is enough tacit support to make the whole thing very scary indeed.

Actually I was just curious given that Karl referred to White Europe. I notice even the Dalai Lama agrees (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/31/the-dalai-lama-says-too-many-refugees-are-going-to-germany/) ... with checks on immigration unlike the Pope who seems to urge for more. But of course wanting or not wanting more Muslims in Europe has nothing to do with race - since Islam is a religion and not a race - nothing to do with white/non-white. I think perhaps what we may see under threat is our culture born of the Enlightenment - of individual freedom and so on - our secular values and not so much our Christian ones - especially as not very long ago the Christian Right was one of the main factions in society which wanted to limit individual freedoms. I think that throwing race into the mix in this debate is probably a bad idea or a wrong turn since there are people from all parts of the globe who value what we value and would seek both to uphold those ideas and occasionally seek shelter from oppression.

When she wants to tempt you with an apple?

Is this a race issue for you then?

Wot! are they halving the lunch breaks as well!

Voices in my head (yes I am psychotic) are saying a BFW (Big Fucking War) is coming and they are getting their ducks in a row.