Apech

James I

Barking up the wrong tree there.

I don't agree completely with the following (not being the lefty I once was) - but he makes some interesting points:

To be honest syllogisms while they may be correct in the way you apply them completely miss the point which I was making. And that was this. You argue for Brexit on the basis of liberty, by which you mean individual liberty and democratic rights (or that's what I think you mean). My point is that England is completely in the hands of the driving forces behind the economy and managed by their lackeys. The driving forces behind the English economy are financial services and banking (relying heavily on the internal housing market - i.e. lending money at stupid rates based on grossly inflated values). They are untouchable even when they plunge the world into near depression (2008/9). The Government then used our money - public money to bail out the banks as you will remember to muted protest. If they truly had the value of individual rights why didn't they simply underwrite in full individual savings and let the banks live or die subject to market pressures? Not only that but successive governments have continually eroded personal privacy and are running what is a nanny state - based on fear mongering and peoples natural fear of terrorism and so on. Of the countries with which I am familiar - mostly Portugal and UK (but also France and Spain to a limited extent) the UK is the least likely to want to preserve my individual rights and so on. And the people in power now are the same group who will hold power afterwards - they have seen to that. So a vote for Brexit is not a vote against corporate power and the New World Order - in fact its a vote for their most enthusiastic proponents. My small aside about jailing bankers was just an illustration that the prospectus which you put forward under the Leave campaign is wrong. If indeed Brexit meant the end of the nanny state, the end of political correctness, the restoration of a working parliamentary democracy, a reaffirmation of the preservation of the rights of individual under law and a sound economic plan going forward for the next 25 - 50 years - then I would vote for it with enthusiasm.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4ceckj_cave-structures-shed-new-light-on-neanderthals_school

One point out of many as you well know. I was simply pointing out that it is not 'completely irrelevant' as you asserted. For a rational man you quickly drop logicality in an argument.

Its not irrelevant given that England is ruled by the Financial Services industry - accountable to no-one nit even the law.

The Portuguese have put several (though not enough bankers in prison). How many in England paid any price for their irresponsibility? Ans. Zero.

Presuming you meant interest and not incest as I first read it. Well that's exactly what I am doing. Making a choice in my own self interest which while not being perfect is the best for me (and mine). We are powerless already - especially in England. Oh really! You know all about Portugal do you? It's nothing like Greece that's a myth. Ok it's relatively poor and lacks investment for infrastructure. The public service were very well organised until austerity decimated them. They still work though. I'm not free of state control because they are disorganised but because they have a much more open and permissive attitude to living. They do not spy on everyone like they do in England. GCHQ remember!?! Well it actually pulled itself out of the bailout and although I agree the economy is weak it is no longer in recession. The Portuguese invested a lot in education post the communist era and one of their problems is that they train many excellent doctors, nurses, technicians and scientists but they all emigrate to other parts of Europe and the states. The whole attitude towards the financial crisis was almost the complete opposite to Greece and the comparison is odious and incorrect.

Well see my post above to your comrade in arms Chang. There is much, much more state control and surveillance (CCTVs and the rest) in England than here - which is relatively free from all that muck. Even though this place was before the 70's a police state. Personal freedoms such as the right to free speech and assembly are written into their constitution - show me where it exists in England these days. So odd that you think Westminster will protect you from the very thing they are clearly so keen on.

Do I? When have I said anything like that? I hate the idea of a homogenised state and don't see any evidence of there being one. Odd that you have to mischaracterise my position in order to criticise it. I happy living here in Europe and I enjoy benefits (and I don't mean welfare) by doing so. It's good for me. I'm treated well and fairly. There are many things wrong with the EU. In fact it is a disgrace. But equally so is the UK. The UK government and media these days represent a kind concerted nanny state attack on individual freedoms. There is far more surveillance, message control, patronising health advice and political correctness in England than anywhere else I have ever been. Why don't you protest against that?

You both , i.e. you and Karl, continue to resort to emotive hate filled images when talking on this subject. I'm being practical. Many people where I live, work or have worked in Holland, France and so on. Often they receive letters about tax, pensions and national insurance from those countries and we help them with translation - luckily most Dutch people speak good English and my better half speaks French and Spanish. Having a unified system would help these people greatly. I don't think this kind of migrant work is going stop any time soon - unless they are replaced by robots!?! So if the EU is actually going to do something useful like standardise processes or allow local services to deal with other national systems and advice I would welcome it. The EU member states approach to dual tax and so on - is quite enlightened and fair as far as I have experienced. I can only speak from experience - and not from under the shadow of the holocaust which is where you seem to be coming from. Perhaps though, I live in a fairly benign and anglophile country - so maybe if I was somewhere else I would think slightly differently. Just for clarity I will restate - if someone can paint (or even better detail) an alternative future outside the EU which does not involve invoking the Normandy Landings, the Battle of Britain, Agincourt, the Spanish Armada, the Sunday Observance Laws, half crowns and florins, quarter pound cheddar cheese wrapped personally by nice Mr. Sainsbury - then let me know and I will revise my position.

@Karl, I'm relaxed about this given both HMRC and the Portuguese IRS have all my details - having a common number would probably be helpful. And incidentally I have found that, although I cannot possess one myself, identity cards are actually a useful and convenient thing, saving all that nonsense with utility bills and wot not that you are subject to in England. They are not the threatening erosion of civil liberties that some people have suggested but just a very easy to use method - which also serve as passport if needed. I think we have to accept that in the age of credit cards and so on - most if not all of your activities are already or soon will be recorded electronically somehow. And we already pay a European Tax called VAT.

55 - 60% remain 45 - 40% leave ... care to wager?

No I can't get Newsnight where I am unless someone Youtubes it. But I can imagine how the Norwegians feel about the EU. I also think that possibly if we had never joined the Common Market I might feel differently about the whole thing. Mainly because we would have had several decades to work out how to survive and prosper outside it. Instead we have had 43 years inside the club. I hate to think how much its going to cost just to disentangle ourselves. Not that this is strong argument but all the same it is a factor. I'm all for Liberty and all that. But I still think you are dreaming if you think that anything like that is on the table. The nation state was born, maybe, in the 18th Century and reached its zenith in the late 19th - early 20th - since then globalism has been giving it a slow death. We don't talk much about the NWO these days but its still very much on the agenda. Soon (relatively) we will be talking about world government and not just Europe.

I think both Schengen and the Eurozone are ideas that cannot possibly work without federal union. As such they should have been implemented. And they wouldn't have been except for the deceitful union by stealth policy which the ideologues had introduced. But that has been kicked in the head by the failed Lisbon Treaty. Cameron certainly never meant for us to leave Europe no more than he thought Scotland would leave the Union - both referenda are products of his spineless 'anything that keeps me in power' way of thinking. But consider this - your future leaders Osbourne or Boris are just from the same privilege club - with the same attitudes derived from 'we are born to rule'. Only the English would fall for such utter tripe.

Mu.

Ok. Facts. 1 ) Britain has avoided the stagnation of the Eurozone while being in the EU but not in the Eurozone. The proposal is that we do not join the Eurozone - that's part of Cameron's deal. We don't know if leaving the EU would be better. It's all speculation beyond that point. 2 ) No-one knows the consequences of NIRP. I have never seen a 500 Euro note and now I don't suppose I will. 3 ) I already commented on the mismanagement of the immigration crisis. I agree it's a clusterfuck. 4 ) Yes extremist right wing parties are on the rise partly as a result of immigration. 5 ) Fences are being put back but then Britain as well as staying out of the Eurozone also were not part of Schengen - so our 'fences' were always up. 6 ) What they are doing to Greece? Or perhaps what the Greeks have done to themselves? I'm not a fan of austerity as a policy but the what are they supposed to do - pour in more billions without insisting on reforms? 7 ) MEPs are elected. What exactly they do is another matter. I don't like the power structure of the EU - it needs radical reform no doubt. Those are facts.

Facts?

As far as I can see only France and Germany (and possibly the Netherlands and of course Belgium) have really benefited from the EU so far. I'm not blinkered about the defects. I've seen what joining the Eurozone did to Portugal at first hand. Small countries in the EU have major problems - even if they tow the line. But as I repeatedly keep saying what convinces me least is the idea of sailing off in HMS Victory with Boris Johnson at the wheel waving the Union Jack somewhere into the mid-Atlantic.

@Karl, That just reads like a list of assertions without any evidence. Nation states do not automatically ensure individual liberty. Just look at history. Do I need to give examples? What is eroding individual liberty both in fact and as an idea is the inter-sectionalist left in the guise of feminism, anti-racism, LBTQ groups and so on. They are shutting down free speech and debate in our universities and in the media. This effect is worse in the UK and the USA. It does not seem to exist in the same way in European public life. So EU membership may help to counteract this hijack of the progressive liberal/left agenda. I realise we are not in the same camp on this - but I think we both share the desire for individual liberties and rule of law i.e. classical liberal values. Perhaps, I'm not sure, but if the Brexit alternative was to become the 51st state under the US constitution I might vote for that - provided I could be certain that the principles of individual freedom would be preserved.

@Karl Yes I have a good deal now. And my whole point is that in the absence of a convincing forward plan by either side I will vote to keep the good deal I have within the status quo. Neither you no or I know what will be happening in 5 years time. P.S. I find your idea that this is about 'liberty' remarkably naive. There will be no more or less liberty either way.

I agree that the whole thing is being both very badly handled and also deliberately confusing. I saw on Sky News this morning Cameron addressing a group of EasyJet workers at Luton Airport - presumably as a pseudo public address to workers whose employment relies on international transport and so carrying the suggestion that work, wealth and employment rely on being part of the EU and so on. A carefully managed message I suppose. What the debate lacks as far as I'm concerned is realistic and properly developed plans for the future either inside or outside the EU. I don't want political union but I do want a strong UK economy which must it seems to me be largely dependent on trade and services with Europe. I am completely unconvinced by the arguments of 'Leave' that the UK will be undamaged by Brexit - it's possible that there may be a long term viable plan going into 25/30 years int he future but the immediate 5 - 10 years impact will be harmful as far as I can see. On immigration I have mixed feelings. Being a liberal lefty I dislike the hate and fear the other mentality that has crept in - but I do accept that uncontrolled mass immigration is hugely problematical. The total mismanagement of the Syrian issue is worrying. And I put this down to our politically correct confusion. eg. it's somehow racist to see this as a problem - so just ignore it or guilt trip over it. The best example is of Merkel trying to wash away memories of the Holocaust by allowing uncontrolled entry - just daft. I'm not falling for the romantic emotional appeal for a return to the 1950's of the likes of Peter Hitchens and to a certain extent Farage. And when I look at the other members of the Leave group, Gove, IDS, Boris ... I just know there isn't a single person there I could trust or follow. Just a bunch of opportunists and/or right wing loonies as far as I can see. The relative silence of the Labour party is something of an indictment - but then much as like Corbyn as a fellow, his views are hopelessly outdated and I think he is compromised by his long history as an activist - some of which I agree with and some I don't. So in the end for reasons partly informed by pure self interest (I live in Europe but pay tax in UK under the Dual Tax Agreement) I will vote Remain. And just to piss off Karl and Chang I might mention that if I count in my parents, siblings, daughters and their respective partners - that's 13 Remain voters - in the bag!

A dog with buddha-nature?

I'm not a Zen practitioner - so no - you research it.