Apech

Leaving Tsongkhapa's 'unique' interpretation aside for a moment - I think perhaps the problem may be that the very idea that Dzogchen or Tantra are a 'system' is a bit confusing. And certainly the idea that the goal of either is different is even more confusing. Buddhism (especially Tibetan Buddhism as a broad approach) includes many 'means' to approach the same goal i.e. Buddhahood. Beginning I suppose with the 4 Noble Truths. In the time of the Buddha just hearing these for the first time was a cause for awakening. In Tantra and Dzogchen all that is being distinguished (as far as I can see) is to either a ) work on transforming energy or b ) return to the natural state without any intermediary process. Of course there is a complexity of terminology and so on - but I think you will find that actual practitioners do both - and sometimes do both within the sae practice e.g. a tantric sadhana which involves or culminates in just sitting in the natural state.

Meaning Tsongkhapa misunderstood Madhyamaka (probably).

What do you mean that there's no separation between everything? Of course there is. My arm is here attached to my shoulder (for the time being and a little longer I hope) and yours is somewhere else. And when you use techniques of feeling someone's energy for healing - that's called communication not merging surely - even if you you do this by identifying with the other person in order to feel the blockages or whatever.

Morning in the bowl of night has flung the stone that sets the mods to flight.

Healing is something else entirely - more to do with manipulating resonant energies - as I was told once with great authority 'the patient really heals themselves.' The yidam is an aspect of your own true nature (dharmakaya or buddha-nature) - another person is not.

Well, what I said is my experience and understanding from practice. I see yidam practice as completely different to trying to merge with another human being. In fact, and I may have misunderstood what is intended I find the whole idea rather creepy.

Enjoy your beer. Since I am struggling to follow this thread I think I will give up.

None of this means you merge with anther person - where does that idea come from?

Thanks to all involved - specially Brian, SC and Chang - I know how difficult it can be. Good luck to the new team

Not as boring as peeping at other people's auras and long bible quotes.

Thou art trapped for ever in this living hell ... ha ha aha ha ha (echos) ....

Better if you have though.

I like the Mooji vid but couldn't really be bothered to watch all of the other one - which had too much of that spooky 'we are spiritual' vibe for me. I'm finding it difficult to answer the poll - because it's a straight yes/no answer. Does energy work lead to self realisation? ... well maybe sometimes but quite often not. The best answer I think is that you cultivate Xing ad Ming at appropriate times. But if you cultivate Ming (life energy) to have experiences ... as Mooji says that's child's play or rather it's playing around. Some people do this and come unstuck when it actually works i.e. they get (sometimes) violent reactions - well that begs the question why do it if you don't want something to happen? Huh?

Just thought you might.

Hang on we proved the earth was flat just a few days ago.

That's a very interesting question. I'm not sure I can answer it precisely at present ... however ... certainly Tantric Buddhism arose in medieval Indian period ... maybe 600 - 1300 AD ... (not exact dates but just to give a picture of the period). There is some evidence (wait for Gatito to pounce here) that in the earliest period tantric masters were or could be both/either Hindu or Buddhist - for instance Tilopa is named in Hindu tantra master lists by some. Anyway that aside - the lineages of Buddhist Tantra originate from the primordial Buddha (e.g. Samantabadhra or Vajradhara) and not so much in the way the sutra lineages come from the historical Buddha - which is code for they arose through direct revelation /meditational experience of the masters. Not sure what you mean by older traditions. Perhaps you can give me clue what you are hinting at here. I do practice with yidam - mostly vajrasattva at present thought also Chenrezig and Medicine Buddha.

You have to be careful here with terminology. There is one version of 'merge' which might mean to dissolve or even muddy the boundaries between two separate things. E.g. you and someone/thing else. This of course is not a good idea and would produce some kind of nebulous mess. For instance a baby in utero has less identity than an adult person. Should that adult person then want to 'return to the womb' then this would be an example of just falling backwards into the soup. However if you affirm that all beings are in fact separated by their skins into unique individuals - but that the core nature of their beings is not essentially different one to another - then you could affirm the 'not-twoness' of them. This is what happens in yidam meditation - you do not merge as become lost in the deity or something like that - you realise that you and it are not different in the way I explained above.

Just a couple of points on yidam practice and 'merging'. During (most) Buddhist tantric sadhana - following a process called the development stage of building up the visualisation of the deity and its mandala, making offerings and so on , there is a completion stage at which the yidam either dissolves into shunyata or into light and merges with you and you with it - you become inseparable. The reason this is possible is that the nature of your own mind and the yidam are the same. Or to put it another way the yidam is an aspect of your buddha-nature (enlightened mind) with which you reconnect and then become. This is considered a very powerful way to realise the true nature of your mind. In some practices such as lojong (which is not tantric) you do exchange with others by taking in their suffering and giving in replace your merit - but in no sense do you merge with them.

I am reading it ... but then I haven't claimed to be in my right mind.

I find myself agreeing with my friend Gatito.

?

Call of Beauty.

Beyond the Spiritual Heart I lift an eye-glass South-ward Toward the great grey mass cloud Lit from behind by the bleaching sun And one lone bird wavers in the light Its albatross wings hang hooking hot air And we sigh. If I caught that sound To recollect the moment it would be nothing, Nothing again repeated by our lost bodies, Which if we gave them up completely We could fly, draped in William Blake cloth Until we crossed the frontier and Drifted out to the Island of the Blue Pearl. No pirates would dare, nor sea monsters lurk, Because that shore is forbidden And has no equal.

Atlantis thread? I shall go and search the ocean for it.

Roger that. Charlie Victor Foxtrot ... out.