Apech

Although I haven't read the authors you quote I am prepared to accept that what you say about the Bushmen is true. But I think you have made a number of assumptions about them and their relation to the whole of human history which cannot be substantiated. It is not possible to know if there was homosexuality in modern mankind through the last 150,000 years from looking at one group which although it stayed in Africa has had a history of its own and interaction with other groups and so on. It is more likely since it is found in the natural world and in all (as far as I know) cultures in the historical period that it did exist and is just a natural part of human expression. I did not think you were attacking anyone personally but the hypothesis you present suggest that homosexuality is an imbalance which does not appear if people practice qi gong and so on. In other words it is some kind of defect. If you think that, then that is up to you but I don't agree. Gay people have a difference obviously but I don't think it is a defect, I think it is a different expression of that which makes up a human being.

I read the first chapter and in a different translation it says: more knowledge = more grief .... therefore presumably less knowledge less grief ...so don't get knowledge ... so stay stupid ... tell me another way to read this ... seriously I would like to know ...

Modern humans first appeared somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago. For 90% of our history there is no record of how we lived or about sexuality. In all cultures since then where there are records there were gay people. So it would be very unlikely that it was not the same throughout those 200,000 years. Obviously in many cultures it was frowned up, outlawed and vilified. In fact it could be a taboo subject ... leaving the impression that it doesn't exist. So I am certain that pythagoreanfulllotus' first statement is false.

Sure I've read some but I don't like that period much. I prefer the older stuff.

Er what!? Buddhism promotes wisdom and also learning ... The Taoist sage is wise and so on ... I don't get that ... this Biblical idea that you should just stop thinking for yourself and believe is rubbish.

This is a thousand times true.

V ... I have a feeling you have posted this before.

Ok I've read it now and it seems to mean the same to me. Can you explain an alternative interpretation?

Ok will do ...

What is the point of it then?

Yeah let's stay stupid! Thank you Mr. God.

Does he have his benefits and welfare taken away?

is that from the Gospel of Turtle Shell ?

I would prefer to see no sexism, racism and homophobia on here at all. I would like to see any post which expresses any of these views deleted. That is my gut reaction to the question. AND I also believe one of the best ways to combat these views is open debate. Political correctness has the effect of suppressing debate and drives received values and judgements underground where they simmer away with no hope of resolution. So I would suggest we should have protocol which identifies a way of responding to such posts if they occur. A standard paragraph from the Mod Team asking the poster to rephrase or explain their point in other language and open challenge from other members. This would be for hate crimes if you like. The other category is, as happened recently someone posts links or quotes or ideas coming from other sites with a certain socio/political agenda. These exist whether we approve of them or like them or not. Wider than that I am sure you could find quotes from Buddhist sites which regard being gay as sexual misconduct. I know the Dalai Lama got into a pickle with this issue … since the medieval writings of Buddhist masters includes prohibitions against certain sorts of sexual activity i.e. oral, anal and with certain people. If this issue got any kind of resolution it was not by sweeping it under the carpet. It has to be out there and addressed in my opinion. So there must be people who are on TBs or may become members who read these texts and think that being gay is bad for you. If they never express this thought, or if they do and it is just stamped down then they will never get the opportunity to be enlightened by other posters on here.

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." -- Wendell Phillips, (1811-1884)

Get some of those halogen lights The Pope's resignation means nothing to you ... I would suggest ... to the millions of Catholics it means a lot, to the Pope himself it means even more and to the candidates as much. To the rest of the world the impact of institutions such as this makes some difference ... even though it may be minimal to you. So I don't see why we shouldn't discuss it. Do you?

Nothing wrong with thinking ... its a natural function like everything else. From here I learned that there was such a thing as the Malachy(i) Prophecy which I had not heard of .. so now I know what it is. It is educational to watch the machinations of the various orthodoxies to see how they operate in the world and therefore guard against them.

So we should stop thinking and get on with the gardening? What are we doing spending so much time on here then? Vmarco started this thread to discuss the prophecy and the Pope's resignation and what it might mean. So what's the problem?

Not really.. there are a lot of books on Egypt of course, academic, popular and mystical. I have never found one book which hits the spot so to speak ... which is why I am trying to write one

Although I think I described the created world of 3 dimension + time as being like a bubble in the infinite waters of the Nun, more correctly I should have pointed out that even this world is permeated by those waters. If you tear aside the veil of appearance, of perceived form beyond this you will see voidity (= Nun). Just as if you dig in ground you will find water so the Egyptians understood that existence was permeated by non-existence. The Duat is like a way into, through and back from the waters which are inside normally perceived reality. It is like a hidden dimension inside everything. Nowadays we are taught to dismiss inner experience (like a dream or vision) as 'subjective' somehow not real. But to the Egyptians dreams , visions and so on were access to the hidden realm. So not just on death but in dreams and so on this was access to the Duat in varying degrees. For instance you could say a dream is uncontrolled access, lucid dreaming more controlled access, shamanic ecstatic states would be a kind of bodily access, after death the same, even meditation is like a very small and very controlled movement into the duat dimension if you like. To the Egyptians just as the earth (gross level) is real, the sky (subtle level) is real so to is the Duat. Different rules may apply but they are all real. In any tradition which talks of an underworld or other world ... this is the same thing as the Duat. Actually if I had to make an equation it would be more like astral body (literally star body) = ba, etheric body = ka. However I don't like doing this because I find the terms like astral body to be inexact and not properly defined. The ba is a specific term which can be properly defined and used ... with a bit of work you can say exactly what it is. While the astral body is not as far as I am aware and is just a loose functional term which means different things to different people. I think it may have been Crowley who deliberately cut the silver chord to show that it was just a mental projection ... it was there because people believed it should be, or had been told it was there ... it wasn't essential or 'real'in that sense. If you want a proper explanation of the shade I have to do it in context of the body, ba, ka and so on so I'll try to write a bit more. By the way there are also a few more parts of being like the name "Ren" which I haven't mentioned yet. Set is an interesting god. In early times he was seen as an equal but opposite equivalent to Horus .. rather yin/yang int heir duality. But in later times because of his role in the murder of Osiris he became vilified as a kind of politically correct thinking crept into Egyptian ideas. So he became kind of unmentionable ... almost like a Satan. This is unfortunate because the earlier understanding is 'better'. Set performed an essential role in the overthrow of Apep. This is because his attribute is the 'blind' application of power or energy. Like when you stop worrying about the do's and don'ts and niceties and think I'm just going to do this thing. Pushing through obstacles to get where you need to go. Horus on the other hand, like an overseeing eye sees all the aspects of situation holistically, all the pro and cons of action, the possible results and so on ... you can see that this might be inhibiting to spontaneous action sometimes. So sometimes you have to just say damn the consequences I'm going to do it. Close your eyes and pray I'm not saying this is what those gods are in the sense of a definition I am just pointing to the worldly consequences of their 'existence'. Set is an advantage at certain times. So when faced with overwhelming odds for instance, Set is your man (god). But the by-product of the application fo Setian power is ... random ... is unpredictable ... confusion ... like a storm. Thus Set is the god of desert storms. So a lot of the time you would favour Horus which allows you to see each situation holistically but then at other times Set is needed. An example would be a situation which is dominated by an established hierarchy ... one which worked in the past but is now defunct. It would be appropriate in this circumstance to be iconoclastically Setian tearing down the old order .. but there would be a need to recognise that the resulting chaos would have to be addressed.

It doesn't matter about the delivery as you put it. Facts are facts. What matters is the response - judgemental or no. That is: response 1 : condemn all gay people for their promiscuity and life style response 2: promote safe sex practices through concern for people's well being. Value judgements obscure the possibility of reasoned response. Just as say in areas of the third world, Africa for instance, AIDS is endemic because of heterosexual practices ... you can either condemn this and make judgements about the people involved and their life style or you can think of intelligent effective solutions ... i.e. sex education, more empowerment of women, legalize and regulate prostitution - for instance.

how's your Latin ... you'll need that when you get to the Vatican.

The problem of studying Ancient Egyptian symbols or texts, without modern interpretation that is, is that the Egyptians themselves supplied no commentary or narrative explaining what exactly it was that they were talking about. In fact it is this lack of any description of practices or states of mind or being which caused many egyptologists to claim that there was no spirituality in Egypt at all! This despite the Greek writers saying the Egyptians were the most religious and spiritual people they encountered. The reason the Egyptians didn't explain themselves or spell it out for us is simple, it was embedded cultural knowledge. In other words they just assumed that everyone would basically understand what was behind their symbols and writing. It has to be remembered that although the Egyptians were among the first to use writing and were prolific recorders of everything, the concept of 'you only know it if it is written down' comes from later times. If they thought that 'everyone knows this' they would not bother spelling it out. This leaves a big gap to be filled, the need to provide a modern narrative or commentary. It is possible to demonstrate that the Egyptians only began to record what they were doing when this embedded cultural knowledge was beginning to be lost. This is the reason that the Pyramid Texts only appear in the small pyramids at the end of the Fifth Dynasty and Sixth Dynasty which led up to the cultural and social collapse of the the First Intermediate Period (brought on probably by climate change). Similarly the Book of the Dead was only codified and put in a definite order and number of Chapters in the 26th dynasty (about 600-500 BC) (what is called the Saite Recension) – and this is almost a 1000 years after the book first appeared! And indeed some of the chapters relate back to parts of the Pyramid Texts which first appeared 2350 BC making them then about 1700 years old. What is amazing is that these same texts were still in use throughout this period of time. So you will not find any genuine ancient texts or symbols which show directly what practice to do or how to understand the principles of what they were doing. However there is a lot of compelling evidence to show that what they were describing is shamanic in origin and also that certain key texts describe what we would call energy work or cultivation. Another writer Jeremy Naydler in his book “Shamanic Wisdom in the Pyramid Texts” has demonstrated how applying phenomenological processes to understanding the Pyramid Texts shows that what was being practiced were shamanic 'arts'. So I won't go further than to say this is fairly self evident. There are a number of other clues to interpreting these texts and symbols which I will attempt to describe. The Egyptians had a good understanding of anatomy and physiology. Their medical payrii include the description of a system of vessels or channels in the body called metu. There were 22 metu which connected the heart (considered as a kind of command and control centre) to various parts of the body. These channels were not veins, arteries, ligaments or nervous system – although some of them seem to run along the same pathways. They are variously described as carrying blood, air, mucus, urine, semen, disease bearing entities and benign or malign spirits. Obviously this confuses the Egyptologists somewhat because they are unfamiliar with the idea of chi and meridians. But it is clear that they were talking about energy channels in the body ... and where blood or mucus is mentioned this is the improved flow or circulation arising from the flow of energy in the metu. Then we come to the texts themselves. Most are obscure funerary texts. Sometimes this gives the impression that the Egyptians were obsessed with death but of course it is partly due to archeology. The best preserved monuments and artifacts come from the necropolis because although there has been desecration since the oldest times the tombs have escaped centuries of building and rebuilding which has left the towns and palaces hidden under modern cities. What some of the text do say though, is that they are 'useful on earth' in other words they are to be used by the living as well as for funerals. The other problem with translations of texts is that Egyptologists put their own interpretation on the original words. To give an example here is a short section from the Pyramid Texts: “...You have not gone away dead: you have gone away alive. Sit on Osiris's chair, with your baton in your arm, and govern the living; With your water lily scepter in your arm, and govern those of the inaccessible places. Your lower arms are of Atum, Your upper arms are of Atum, Your belly of Atum, Your back of Atum, Your rear of Atum, Your legs of Atum, Your face of Anubis. Horus's mounds shall serve you, Set's mounds shall serve you.” (Spell 213 trans. Allen.) The traditional way of understanding this is that it is part of a funeral of a dead king who is being addressed as he becomes god-like. However the first line “you have gone away living” suggests otherwise. Egyptologists explain this away by saying its aspirational ... about living after death. So if we look at it as being about energy working with a living subject we can understand the text as follows. Osiris is the ruler and judge in the underworld. The underworld or Duat is an inner realm or dimension and by sitting in Osiris's chair you place yourself in the centre, in the heart, in the middle. 'in your arm' is the Egyptian way of saying 'in your hand'. So you sit on Osiris chair with a baton in your left hand and a lily scepter on your right. The inaccessible places means the Duat or realm of the dead. So you are in the centre with a left and right hand channel. Then you identify your body (part by part ) with Atum. Atum means 'complete or undivided' and refers to the creative power in the void. So the parts of the body are being filled with this voidic power. The face of Anubis means that your attention is focused into the dark energy of the Duat and not into the light. The mounds of Horus and Set are seen as like burial mounds or tumuli ... where the Egyptologists have translated 'serve' the actual word pXr means to turn, perambulate or surround. However they have a problem with this because it is supposed to be about a dead king in his sarcophagus ... or at least sitting on a chair. How can he go round or circulate? They understand the mounds to be physical places possibly settlements or towns. So they have changed it to serve to make it make sense (to them). The god Horus, the falcon is to do with his eye, and therefore awareness or perception. Set is about will or drive. So the 'mounds' are actually centers or places of focus for awareness or will. If this is about energy work then it is ok to say ... something like the centers of awareness and will, will circulate for you. An image very like the idea of chakras in the energy body. So my interpretation actually makes the more sense of the text. It is a set of instructions or perhaps a visualisation technique for controlling and moving energy in the body. Its main method is identification with various deities in a similar way to which tantric yoga might work. Because the deities and images were culturally familiar to Egyptians the technique would work easily for them. While for us we have to do some preliminary work to make it accessible. The other related subject area to the idea of energy work (neigong or similar) is the parts of being. The Egyptians did not see a person as being composed of a single entity but more as a collection of several entities. One of these being the body. As you can see in the previous example the body (or parts of it) could be identified with deities. In another example parts of the body are identified with star-gods. The 'imperishable stars' were those which circulated around the north point in the sky and did not set below the horizon. Because they did not set (i.e. Die) they were thought to link to immortality. The chief constellation of these stars was Ursa Major the Plough or Big Dipper. “Your head as Horus of the Duat – an imperishable star, Your face as “Eyes Forward” - an imperishable star, Your ears as Atum's twins - an imperishable star, Your eyes as Atum's twins - an imperishable star, Your nose as the Jackal - an imperishable star, Your teeth as Sopdu - an imperishable star, Your arms Hapi and Duamutaf – when you demand to go up to the sky, you go up, Your legs Imset and Qebehsenuef – when you demand to go down to the undersky, you go down, Your limbs Atum's twins - an imperishable star. You will not perish, your ka will not perish: you are ka.” This text comes later in the same sequence started in the one I quoted above. So we have a series of identifications of parts of the body with gods and stars. The last line giving a clue to the goal, the ka that does not perish. The body then is a kind of vehicle for carrying out the energy work and is seen often as being many parts joined together. The key to this process is identification with various deities and then circulation (going up in the sky and then down). Certain parts of the body were seen as being particularly important. The heart, the lungs, the liver, the stomach and the intestines. These were vessels for the individuals consciousness and the primary forms of energy which make up life (precursors to the four elements or humors). Next we need to look at the 'ka'. The ka is both part of a person (often translated as a 'double') and a form of energy. Actually it is the bio-field or etheric body which surrounds the body. But it should not be seen as a kind neutral energy like electricity rather each person has their own signature or characteristic energy. So the ka energy has a kind of formed nature. At birth we receive the ka from our parents, then it is during life in three ways. By affection (or sex), by food and by status. The symbol of the ka is a pair of arms raised in embrace ... which is to do with the transmission of ka by affection ... hugging perhaps. The food offerings made in Egyptian tombs were called ka ... and so the energy absorbed through food was said to feed the ka. The effect of status on a persons ka may not at first seem obvious. But if you look at the affect on people such as movie stars and politicians of being in the limelight ... you will see how attention feeds people's charisma, their ka. Even the most unprepossessing grey haired politician gets a certain sparkle when they become president or prime-minister. Normally we are focussed on our bodies but it is possible to refocus on the energy-body of the ka. The Egyptians held that on death the first stage is to 'go to your ka' which means your consciousness is refocused on the ka and leaves the body. But the ka needs energy input to sustain it and so it is thought necessary to sustain it. Hence “You will not perish, your ka will not perish: you are ka.” The body and the ka are not the complete being. The next significant part of a person is the 'ba'. The ba is often translated as 'soul' but this is a vague translation. The word ba is also used to mean god or power. It is especially used of a god's power to project and embody themselves as a form. The word ba is also related to words that mean brilliant or bright. So the ba is a luminous entity which is capable of projecting form. This includes the power to transform into different forms and an ability to do this was seen as key in the Book of the Dead. As part of an individual being the ba manifests as a life-force or virility, that is a creative power. As such it can be understood as the spark of divine power within us, or perhaps that is us. Because the ba can travel independently to the body, unlike the ka which is linked to the body it is shown as a bird with a human head. After death it tends to leave the tomb and has to be coaxed back to reunite with the body. It is the ba which leaves the tomb to fly to the sky to witness the first sunrise. Together with the luminous power of the ba there is another entity called the 'shade'. Shown as a silhouette it accompanies the ba when it leaves the tomb to see the sun. The shade is the essential form of the being. If you like a conceptual level of existence. The purpose of Egyptian practices was to bring these different parts of being together to form a single entity called an akh. The chapters of their texts were called se-akh ... or akhifiers in English. The akh can be translated as 'effective spirit' and was an eternal spritualized self.

here's one it's very you.

No problem you'd still get my vote ... and a free phrygian cap!