Apech

OK. If I may I'd like to elaborate a little about breath. The external breath - that of air going into and out of the lungs is first. Now, obviously the lungs are key and they are enclosed in the rib cage. The top of the rig cage to maybe half (?) way down is fixed at the front at the sternum. The lower ribs are not fixed and so can expand a little. Beneath the lungs and across the body is the diaphragm, which is basically a muscle layer. So all of external breathing occurs through the expansion of the the lower ribs and the up down movement of the diaphragm. To breathe in requires no effort except opening the cavity of the lungs by allowing the diaphragm to push down slightly and the lower ribs move outward. The air enters through atmospheric pressure and not by sucking. So no effort, just opening. The out breath requires a slight push against the atmospheric pressure supplied by the contraction of the diaphragm. Breathing should be smooth, unforced and silent. Through the nostrils and not the mouth. The mouth should be closed and the tongue touching the palette behind the teeth. As the diaphragm moves up and down it gently massages the abdominal cavity and the organs in it - the stomach, the liver, the intestines, spleen, pancreas etc. because of this there is a slight expansion and contraction of the belly. But it is important to understand that you cannot breath through the movement of the tummy muscles - any movement here is just because everything is linked it is not the breath. Of course there are exercises where you deliberately contract the belly but that is not really breathing. The internal breath is more important. When you are qi sensitive and you regulate the external breath and rest your unperturbed attention on your body (either generally or specifically on a certain part) the rhythm of the breath actives the qi. You feel a pressure which builds on the in-breath and then circulates out on the out breath. So the external breathing is linked directly to qi movement in this way. If you do it just focusing on the body generally it feels like the whole body is breathing with an alternate expansion and contraction. In the LDT and the MDT it feels like a churning (or that's what I would call it). It is this breathing, qi breathing which many of the Daoist texts are referring to and not external breathing and hence some confusion.

@ChiDragon as promised my understanding: OK I will outline how I understand qigong and Neidan. The first thing to say is that it is not my specialist subject but I did study under a Chinese gentleman from Hong Kong who was living in England at that time, about thirty years ago. He taught me a qigong form called 'Nine Rings' and a Neidan mediation called Iron Mountain Lineage to a level where he said I could teach them to others. About 5/6 years ago when I was considering returning to Daoism as a main practice I studied English translations of a number of texts, such as Wang Mu and the Cantong qi, making detailed notes and so on. So I have some slight experience of the subject. The first thing to say is that qigong and Neidan are different. Qigong, which I would call skills in working with qi (in the body) has the goal of wellbeing, that is health and happiness. While Neidan has the goal of making the dan and from that immortality (although I don't think this means necessarily through a physical vehicle). Qigong involves three things. First developing 'sung' with the body. In other words mostly through standing postures you learn to relax the body round its frame such that it becomes a kind of absorbant container for qi. This is a distinct feeling which arises after long standing or sitting postures. Then the regulation of the breath, so it is smoothly in and out and continuous, and thirdly the focussed resting of your attention on the body undistracted by thoughts and so on. When this happens (which takes varying amounts of time depending on the person) you begin to become aware of qi on your body. Then the breathing and movement exercises operate through the three – body movement, breath and attention – all together which circulate and move qi in the body (and beyond as you can also learn to project qi). As to what qi is, well this is difficult to say, in some ways it is an effect and in others it is an agent of change. Calling it energy is not wrong but it's not right either. It is best left as being qi based on experiencing it, not speculating about it. Neigong is just as qigong but without so much of the physical movement. The goal of these two is health and happiness or wellbeing as I would put it. Neidan is different. The usual version of where this came from is that it evolved from WeiDan, that is alchemy using substances to make pills or medicines for health and immortality. But I think it is more likely that the whole project of Dan production began as both inner and outer together and then split into two schools, one dealing with outer substances and the other with inner substances. The Neidan approach retained the technical terms from outer alchemy, like lead, sulpher, cinnabar and so on … but applied them differently. The same was done with the TCM system of channels and nodes – the same terms were applied slightly differently and with different emphasis. So Neidan was quite technical and secret because the terminology was opaque to those who were not initiated. However the main point is the creation of the Dan through 'alchemically' mixing inner substances and then processing it to produce an immortal body. This is quite different to qigong, although they are obviously related because they both deal in the three treasures for instance. The level of intensity with Neidan is quite different. Qigong is basically benign but Neidan can be dangerous if misapplied. Jing is not a physical substance but is the most condensed form of qi before it becomes physical. As the physical is just this, a precipitate of qi. Shen is the most fine form of qi which forms the basis for mental activity. All three are a spectrum of states of qi, like ice, water, steam … are all the same substance in different phases. Knowledge and understanding of qi depends entirely on developing qi sensitivity. If one doesn't have it you are unlikely to understand it properly. But once you have it all philosophical speculations about its nature become redundant.

The Guodian version found in a tomb dates to the late 4th century BC -so maybe 2300 years ago. Even the Wang Bi version is dated to 3rd century AD ( about 1700 years ago) so it is impossible for it to be only 1000 years old. It is easy to look these things up.

But not Toxic I hope.

I have quite different views on these things and I will try to find time tomorrow (it’s after midnight here) to say what they are. You can then if you want critique what I have to say 😊

So true … when alone in solitude I cry out to my master to deliver the blow which will deliver my final awakening .. I pray thus: My loneliness is killing me (and I) I must confess, I still believe (still believe) When I’m not with you I lose my mind Give me a sign Hit me, baby, one more time

OK - correct me if I'm wrong but to sum up what you are saying so far. Neidan texts are over mystified by western translation. Jing is body cells. Qi is ATP Shen is something that guides the body (?) The process of Neidan is deep abdominal breathing - because this gives good cell health and vitality. The Dan is nothing more than health produced in this way. In effect there is no real difference between qigong and neidan (?). Is this roughly correct in your view?

Moderation Note: Sorry guys but no politics on DaoBums. Last three posts hidden by me. Happy Christmas.

Feliz natal todos.

Happy shortest day everyone!

What is the breathing method, can you describe it?

Yes please do.

As an incomplete saint I help grandmothers halfway across the street. Not perfect but working on it.

Is there any chance you could outline your basic ideas about how to do Neidan. For instance what is the Dan in your opinion.

ok If you are a spectator of a virtual concept, which has no physical proof, trying to understand the principle of something you don’t believe in, then why did you start a thread called the practice of neidan? Can you explain this because I am lost at this point.

This is exactly the point.

So a 'vital force' and a 'driving force' is not an energy? Hmm. Energy just means the capacity to do work ... or to effect change in some way. So anything which is a vital force must be by definition an energy. Not trying to be picky here as although I accept that the term energy in these contexts has been used in a sloppy way, it does have an exact meaning. Also is it not true that terms which are used elsewhere in certain ways are used in Neidan spcifically as technical terms which may be different to the general meaning of something. I think this needs to be remembered.

This is ep 1 of the series from 1972:

Well I may have misremembered it cos I watched it in the 70’s. The presenters name was Henry Lincoln and he co-authored “the holy blood and the holy grail’ or some such which was a best seller back in the day.

I was just recalling an old TV series called the Blood and the Grail where the presenter referred to king Dagobert as the hairy kings. It has always stuck in my mind - the series ‘inspired’ Dan Browns Da Vinci Code (in other words he ripped it off from them).

The hairy kings who carried the blood line of Christ!

100%

and so?

and?

I practiced Aikido for years because I wanted to learn about ki. I would say nearly everyone I practiced with, including teachers, did not believe ki was real, but at best a kind of metaphor. I practiced qi gong/tai chi also for years and while the teachers did teach qi as real, most of the (western) pupils also did not really believe in it. I was kind of lucky because before that I had practiced meditation for years (mostly unguided and self taught) but qi sensitivity developed naturally without any real technical effort. I can quite see how someone could practice for a long time just physically and never recognise qi. It would be natural in this case to conclude that it doesn't exist. The odd thing is, it is quite easy and natural to get qi sensitivity (I don't mean dramatic powers just the awareness of it in the body) - I think most people would get it if pointed in the right direction. But I am not sure how common it is.