Apech

He who knows the male yet sustains the female will be a river valley for all under heaven. TTC Section 28 trans. R.J. Lynn

Fantastic! I think its always amazing to think how much the ancients in all cultures knew about the stars and the solar system. They seem to have recorded and watched the sky for huge periods of time which mean some kind of (probably oral) transmission of knowledge and a comprehension of the universe which we can only guess at. We were so wise ... shame we lost most of it. Maybe its time to return? A kind of renaissance based on regaining their spiritual knowledge?

With respect Lienshan, the historical record from the Old Kingdom in terms of artifacts is very patchy. There is no way that an obscure Dyn 4 queen 'invented' the idea even though hers may be the first chest that has been found. The Sons of Horus are an integral part of the Egyptian system which was remarkably consistent over thousands of years (although the style of expression did change of course).

Thanks Steve, I love my MacBook.

This is a very real effect to do with your interactions with the world/people and levels of assimilation. There will be emotional content to these conversations which is to do with energy stored in your being as a result of interactions. Don't identify but observe and allow the energy to be recaptured for your own benefit.

I can't find the Vortex quote - although I haven't looked that hard ... maybe he has edited it already. I hope so. I don't accept it's misogynist sounding tone.

Does this mean that 10% of men could get together with 90% of women on the basis of their star signs? Whereas the other 90% of men have to pick from the 10% left over? Perhaps I have misunderstood your point. I'm an Aquarian and misunderstand most things.

Yikes! Maybe you are right. I've never really been a Christian ... though raised in a Christian country (sort of) ... I was just thinking of sermon on the mount and the way jesus dealt with the woman 'taken in adultery' ... but its not my thing really so I will bow to your greater Biblical knowledge. I used to have a red letter bible where you can read just the words of Jesus himself ... most of what he says is 'judge not lest ye be judged' kind of stuff ... but there I go again eh?

It has always struck me as odd how those calling themselves Fundamentalist Christians love to quote the Old Testament and more or less ignore the New. Its so easy to label and condemn people instead of forgive. Jesus always seemed to find an answer to these questions which did not involve damning people but actually saved them. Often people just do what they have to do in the circumstances given.

On the last two/three lines Wang Bi adds commentary: If a tree is stiff, it will be attacked, It will be imposed on by creatures The stiff [strong] and great occupy a position below. This refers to the trunk of the tree. The soft and pliant occupy a position above. This refers to the branches.

I was taking my date from Eva Wong "Shambhala guide to Taoism" Ch. 1 Shamanic Origins (3000 - 800 BC) ... you could trace pre-Dynastic Egypt back to even earlier (by many thousands of years) ... but I was talking about when they wrote things down or attributed themselves to earlier times. I have been thinking about another eight fold arrangement of alternating gods and goddesses as found in the Canopic Jar Chest: the figures facing each other are the Sons of Horus and on the corners if you look closely you can see the protecting goddesses (the one closest is Neith). The male figures are jars containing the main organs of the body and are associated with the cardinal points. The whole forms a kind of mandala of alternating male and female energies. This pic is of Tutankhamun's Canopic Jar Chest. The Sons of Horus are sometimes related to the Pillars of Shu which in turn are sometimes called the Heh gods which originate with the Ogdoad. So maybe we have two arrangements which are the earlier primeval Ogdoad >>>> later Canopic Jar Chest ... its tempting to think Earlier and Later heaven (?).

The traditional standard orientation from Egypt is from the perspective of standing (or lying backward) facing south. So that East is on your left and West on your right. In fact the words for East and West were the same as those for left and right (iabet and amenet). I think I am right in saying that the earliest Taoist shamanism and the earliest Dynastic Egypt are contemporaneous (i.e. 3000 BC +/- a few hundred years). Any similarity -- and there is a lot not just the Ogdoad can be explained by postulating a common source which is the shamanism practiced by all peoples spreading out of Africa after the last ice age ... or if you prefer remembered knowledge from an older civilization now lost to us.

Religious leaders get to wear colourful frocks and strange hats while scientists just have white coats. If they meet we all know who will look the more interesting. No competition really.

Is wishing the death an destruction of hundreds of millions (or billions) of people a good position for a spiritual person?

That's a good example of what I was saying because Shu and Tefnut are the first born of Atum in the Heliopolitan Ennead and Nun and Nunet are from the Ogdoad ... they are used together ... and this is the very earliest writing. Your idea of comparing this to the Bagua is interesting and I hope you explore it further.

The primeval waters are called Nun in the Heliopolitan cosmology. The name is spelled using the wavy/ zig zag line which is the sign for water and sometimes with pots indicating containers of water. So the name Nun refers to this water. In the Ogdoad it is a term used for the wateriness or fluidity of the infinite pre-creational state. In essence its the same term used in two slightly different but related ways. The reason I said that I didn't think the two cosmologies were rivals is because if you read the Pyramid texts (the oldest extended religious writings from Dyn. 5) you find both the Ennead and the Ogdoad used side by side with no conflict. The Egyptians were very both/and and not either/or in their thinking. I'm not sure when Thoth because central to Khmun ... but Thoth is a very ancient deity with references going back into pre-dynastic times. Obviously the name City of Eight suggests that the original cult related to the Ogdoad but this does not rule out Thoth as well ... in the same way as above ... its a matter of complementarity. There is a relation between what you might call the Thothian view of reality and the Ogdoad. Just as there is between Ra and the Ennead. The Egyptians would have accepted both. They even had more than one ultimate creator god ... without conflict ... in what is termed henotheism or sometimes monlatry (by Egyptologists). For instance Amen who originally was one of the Ogdoad in later times became 'top god' Amen Ra ... that is the hidden power behind the sun.

Steve, If she's not wearing a cowboy hat Marblehead won't be interested ....

I'm glad that you are glad ... but she's from Cap Verde so technically its African music ...

The body of Ra is the 'itn' or aten disk. (not to be confused with Aten the god worshiped by Akhenaten). Sorry but I can't follow the rest of what you say ... its a bit cryptic ... could you elaborate a little? Thanks.

Osiris N is you and me .... an individual person not the god Osiris. The Egyptians had a word for this state of being (in the void) and that was 'wn' ... Osiris was called Wn-n-nfr (Wenenefer or sometimes Onophris) which means 'continually good/beautiful being'. The other state of being where you evolve and become something is 'kheper'.

No. The earliest representations look like a yellow wagtail but later almost always a grey heron. The Thoth bird is the sacred ibis. Grey Heron Sacred Ibis