Apech

This question does not compute ... my programming does not include diagnostics ... MessageEnd. Bleeep.

We do fire warning shots. BoL had a 7 days suspension to cool off after a long discussion between mods. he came back and right away starting insulting .... so I sent him this: He did change that post - some mods thought he should have got a longer suspension right away for that - but anyway he continued and then insulted manitou which got him a longer suspension. We are trying to do this in a way which makes people more respectful. BoL stimulated a lot of conversation - some of which was interesting - all he had to do was not to insult others. For someone who claimed to be about to renounce the world that's not a lot to ask. Apech

I read this three times I4L and it didn't make any sense unless you are agreeing with Marblehead. You are not alone on here in not agreeing with evolutionary theory ... but your arguments and examples do not undermine the science in the way you think they do. This is because I don't think you have understood what the scientific position is in the first place. For example your say this: Neither of these statements make any sense at all and seem to attempt to knock down arguments which science has not made in the first place.

Steve, I think that maybe at least part of the 'answer' is that ultimately cultivation of all sorts if done properly i.e. completely, will inevitably lead to a realisation about the nature of reality. This could be true even of the murderer ... if he/she studies the art of murdering to the nth degree, to fully comprehend the nature of the art and its consequences then I wonder how many people they would actually murder. I know this sounds an amoral argument and, unless you are a ninja I suppose (?) not one that I would recommend for anyone but its an interesting thought study. There is a concept of prodigality in Christian thinking which almost leads you to say that those that go down these dark paths are somehow more blessed when they return. Ultimately you could say that any path, if followed properly leads to the Tao, no matter what it is. However out of choice you would choose a path with heart or perhaps being a gentle gardener.

Nice post Stig. I've been growing potatoes, beans, onions and other stuff this year ... well I do the donkey work under direction of wiser minds to be honest but your comments ring true to me. I'm thinking that all nature is Dao but cultivation is specifically the cultivation of Te. So you could say the wilderness is as much Dao as the garden but the garden has this specific thing added - the wisdom of the gardener who enhances what nature provides. Similarly we could live and die ... and that would still be Dao is some sense ... but if we cultivate ourselves (and I include philosophy as well as energy work by the way) then we are like the gardener.

I think you are exactly right about this. On a forum you are (mostly) talking to someone who you have never met. You have no idea about their state of mind or feelings. For instance you can't pick up things like sarcasm and humour because the tone of voice isn't there. If you start attacking the person and not the content of the post then not only could it be unjustified but also plain wrong. Its very easy when typing to make mistakes which change the whole meaning of the post. One of the good things about TTBs is that people will quickly challenge ideas if they think they are wrong. I don't see any reason why this can't be done while also respecting the other poster's right to their opinions. Insults always seem to make the quality of debate degenerate into a slanging match ... which is as unproductive as it is tiresome. So the 'no insult' policy is a good way of making sure that issues are properly aired without descending into flaming. There is a fine balance between colourful language and insult though and no one wants this place to become insipid or anodyne.

Now you've posted in the lobby you should be able to post in Taoist Discussion. Welcome by the way. And please read the moderation guidelines.

This was believable until you got to the bit about virgins. Come on we're not stupid!

*** Moderator Message **** User sykkelpump was asked to self edit this post as it is deemed insulting. He has decided not to respond or take the opportunity to amend the post so he has been suspended for 30 days. I realize that perhaps his post has been discussed and so this might seem a bit late to take action now but his failure to even respond or acknowledge the request has made this inevitable. Just to be clear - it is perfectly OK to criticize systems or even teachers with factual observations or opinion ... but name calling or describing people as clowns and so on is not Ok. Thanks Apech for Mod Team **** Mod Message ****

Hurrah!!!!!!!!

oMG its today!

Since we have been discussing evolution quite a lot recently I thought this article was interesting - it points to a possible mechanism whereby complex life may emerge. BBC web page "We've tried to bridge the gap between protein structure and evolution and believe we've uncovered evidence that proteins develop mild defects in organisms with smaller population sizes, over the great divide from bacteria to unicellular eukaryotes to invertebrates up to us vertebrates," said Professor Lynch.These slight defects may decrease protein function even as they increase protein cooperation."

Is that rapture or rupture? I don't want to get this wrong.

There is unity in nature and also unity in the things of nature ... the sky, the earth and so on. The inner unity of sky means also it is not mixed with earth and visa versa. Things are what they are ... this makes them stable. If human beings could be just what/who they are instead of being proud, angry and so on then they would have the same kind of oneness as the sky. Our systems of politics and government prevent this kind of oneness ... hence the mistakes, wars and so on. I think we may have to wait a long, long time for any of this to change.

There is a huge reputational risk to a scientist to propose anything other than standard model solutions to problems. Also peer group pressure and fear of ridicule work to make science and kind of closed community. However I would say most scientists are genuine seekers after truth. Science is a very powerful way of looking at the world and yields extraordinary technologies which have and are transforming the world ... and this is only because their ideas work ... they are effective. Its all about interpretation of facts. For instance in this article the scientists talk about small 'defects' in proteins which may have extraordinary results. This is rather like chaos theory where tiny changes transform whole patterns of matter/energy. The interpretation comes in saying are these 'defects' or are they something like small changes in energy/matter. Maybe they are in some sense deliberate or willed. Maybe there is some force or process which wills more complex and sophisticated inter-relationships in nature? Maybe this is part of the 'way' ... the mystery creating the 10k things ... maybe ...

It's just like 2012 all over again.

Science is supposed to be an objective exploration of nature tested empirically by experiment. But actually most scientists start with a set of assumptions about the nature of what they are looking at which makes them blinkered. Not blinkered in terms of results of experiments but in terms of interpretation of those results. For instance they are completely wedded to a kind of dead universe view which does not allow for any kind of conscious interaction, will etc. When I said science in incomplete I meant both in terms of being an unfinished journey with unfinished theories about reality and also lacking a complete view ... which would include consciousness/spirit. You said "evolution presumes we are, again, some pathetic nothing, monkeys, shmonkeys, until we get to evolve" ... I would say ... evolution is a science of change and transformation which are key ideas in Taoism (or any mysticism). Nothing wrong with monkeys. All evolution is pointing to is that the orders of creatures grow in complexity and ability to function as they evolve. Our bodies are cells working together - so if we all evolved from simple cells then that's a wonder and a kind of miracle rather than a way of saying we start as nothing shmothing whatever. I don't get the alien thing. True we are alienated ... even Marx said so ... but what does it answer to suggest we have some kind of alien tampering effect going on? We are what we are , nos sommos aquilo que nos sommos, lets deal with that.

I am a non dualist. I see no problem with the equation matter=energy=spirit. We live in a kind of alchemical universe. It has physical processes which reflect this and the only problem with the scientific enquiry is that it is incomplete. They have matter=energy but not the last bit. TM, What is wrong with monkeys or dirt or shit or anything? What is wrong with part of the great dynamic interaction which is life on this planet? Why do we have to look down on some parts of nature? And what does the idea of alien intervention answer anyway? If there are aliens they are just as much part of nature as we are. Marbles, I agree with you ... you could substitute the words variations or changes for 'defects' and the idea still works ... small changes allow the generation of more diverse and complex life ... I like this idea. Cheers A.

Not fully. But the caste system is of course a human invention for social control. To say that it is not this but exists because of karma is to suggest that it exists because of some kind a natural law - which is not so. Karma means action and from this there is a chain of causality which simply says that everything that arises is dependent on causes. It has nothing to do with good or bad which are relative and to a certain extent subjective values placed on actions. However I would accept that in terms of karma and asking 'what should I do?' the answer is 'do good' - in the sense of 'that which benefits yourself and others' is a pretty good rule of thumb for life (IMO).

Only by people who don't understand karma.

I'm not sure the quote is the complete Ch. 74. I found this for instance: If people are not afraid of dying, Why threaten them with death? If people live in constant fear of death, And if breaking the law is punished by death, Then who would dare? There is one appointed supreme executioner. Truly, trying to take the place of the supreme executioner Is like trying to carve wood like a master carpenter. Of those who try to carve wood like a master carpenter, There are few who do not injure their hands. Here Someone's blog I think what is being said is .... don't try to take the place of death itself. If you do then it will rebound on you (injure your own hands). People die when it is the right time for them to die. To go back to the capital punishment thing ... well it could be that it is the right time for a murderer to die when he is in the electric chair (I suppose). But the people administering this must be careful they are not usurping nature.

**** Gentle Mod Message **** Just butting in to this conversation to say I always enjoy listening to people argue about the fact that they don't exist. (I know its a cheap point but it made me laugh.) Can we remain hard hitting and resolute in our own conviction without falling into "you are a ******" ????? That's where the 'no insult' policy starts to bite. Perhaps you could say "I think you may be conceptually blocked ... " or something ... which might address the issue better than calling someone a blockhead. *** Mod Out Carry On Please (and remain calm) *****

A very nice insight I think.

Agree with Shaktimama and Decibelle, There's more to keeping silent than just keeping silent ... if you know what I mean.

Sounds like you are having good insights into how your mind/being ordinarily works. The inertia of habit and fear is what rules most of our lives. These are recorded and repetitive energy cycles (like small whirlpools) and I think that the more you face them and become aware of them the less they are able to dominate. Of course it is necessary to step out of the cycle and overcome fear at some point.