Apech

Yep Marbles thanks ... I think I was trying to read the single line instead of the two together i.e. Who can be muddled yet desist In stillness gradually become clear? which ties in more or less with what you were saying.

Mr. T, Thanks for that translation. There's one line though I can't understand: "Who can be muddled yet desist" it doesn't seem to mean anything to me.

Interesting comments. Nearly all ancient cultures saw time or perhaps history differently to us. They refer back to an original golden age and see all that comes after as (mostly failed) attempts to get back to that time or to reflect it. For instance the Biblical garden of Eden or in Ancient Egypt the Sep Taui (First Time). So the language of this chapter probably reflects a generally held idea that in ancient history things were much better than now .. sages were real sages and so on. Whether this is just an kind of literary device to make the reader aspire to something higher or actually an appeal to the way in which man lived before 'civilization' occurred is a matter of debate. Probably a bit of both. Even to day in for instance martial arts you often here tales of long dead great masters who were 'true masters' compared to whom the current teachers are mere shadows and so on ... so the tradition lives on.

Hi Ben, The orthodox dating makes the Step Pyramid of king Djoser (Zoser) the first to be built (the architect was Imhotep) ... the Great Pyramids are placed later and Egyptologists have a theory of architectural development from one to the other. I am not advocating this view but I just base things on the best proof available and what makes sense to me. Again the Egyptologist's have shown various ways in which the Great Pyramid may have been constructed - including a system of internal ramps - and these ways involve technology known to have been in use at the time (because they have found the tools). Despite this the main point is that the Great Pyramid outshines anything else built in Egypt (or anywhwere else) for several millenia ... so it is an outstanding achievement ... I don't know if ET's were involved ... but I personally would discount that unless there was direct evidence because things can be explained in other ways. As I said before ... I think it is even more amazing that they built the GP if there were no aliens ... Anyway its all fascinating stuff ...

Just to say - excellent thread - keep it going.

If I came to stay at your place you'd quickly understand :lol: ... seriously that doesn't seem to match the other translations ... Also don't like the 'timid' in one translation ... is a sage timid - I don't think so. I hope one of our Chinese scholars can give us the low down on some of these words... BTW I really like this chapter ... like a guide on being a warrior ... but I think it has to clear that it is not based on fear of any kind .... but sensible caution ...

Just do more practice esp. sitting meditation ... concentrate on building up the positive and slowly try to reduce the gratification - so one replaces the other - don't make drastic changes unless you are actually harming yourself (or others). Don't worry if you give in to it ... just go back to practice and start again ... at least 3 months for any real change ... probably longer ... no rush ... PS. Basically what Sloppy said.

How long does the 'being Amy Winehouse' stage last? I'm worried now.

Not sure you are saying this Ben, but I just have to point out that the Pyramids were not built by slaves - but skilled Egyptian artisans working in 'gangs' - they inscribed some stones to this effect and also the workers villages have been found. They were groups of artists, scribes and tradesmen - well educated for the day. There was a civic infrastructure centered round the king and the temple/priests - they even had 'factories' of sorts which manufactured daily items and also food - bread and beer in mass quantities - these existed even in pre-dynastic times (i.e. before Egypt was a unified country). The architecture of the pyramids demonstrates a historical line of development from 'mastaba' tombs - the step pyramid and so on. But it is still true that there followed a period of decline called the 'First Intermediate Period' and that Egyptian culture never quite reached the heights that it did in the Old kingdom. In my opinion there is no need to substitute man's natural intelligence or an age old knowledge with ET involvement. In fact it would make their achievements less extraordinary not more to do so.

A flaccid flower. Which I hold close to my heart Or my limp member.

1) Don't! 2) Oh go on then if you must. 3) I told you!

Completely agree that the achievements of the Old Kingdom Egypt outshone what cam after ... although the religion was developed and they weren't as backward looking as some would have us believe ... the idea of the conservative Egyptian mind comes from Greek commentators right at near the end of their culture. Also it is absolutely true that the confidence in continual linear progress is a myth and has never happened in history ... Dark Ages is a good example ... I think the wisdom that we tap into is far older than any of the scientists imagine ... so perhaps periods of 'decline' are just readjustments in our minds and outlook which are somehow necessary when you get the big picture.

Gerard, Much as I respect you I feel moved to point out that this forum is moderated in a way that people on here seem to generally accept and respect. Obviously different people will have their own definition of what effective moderation is - but I think most of us want as little moderation as possible and for the conversations to be as spontaneous, tangential and at times passionate as they can be. If people disagree strongly that is ok ... what is not ok is personal attacks, insults and so on (read the Mod Guidelines). Just because we don't step in at every hot headed remark does not mean that we are not effectively moderating. In fact self moderation is the ideal - where the participants themselves remind each other of the right etiquette and approach when discussing these subjects. Right now I've got that off my chest I feel a lot better. A.

Welcome to TTBs - we are all cryptic here in our own ways.

I can only comment that it is talking about the central realization of the nature of Tao - and it's interesting, in view of discussion on Ch. 8 that it says follow it and you can't see it's back ... so 'follow' is a way of speaking and not some kind of instruction ... if you see what I mean.

Try logging out and back in to see if it goes away.

going to take this? Man with red hot poker said Grinning ear to ear.

hiding my candy someone got sticky fingers reaching for my sweets

Frean at last, frean at last ....

stayed home in my briefs they are tucked in under here under where? No wear! (nowhere ... get it? ... no? ... ok)

Hair balls maybe .... the cat not you !!!! :lol::lol: Yes that religious type of following ... like following a messiah is pure contrivance ... people want something, power, money, health and think they can get it by pretending to be a slave. Of course they don't mean it ... and any good messiah would tell them to stop and find their own way.

Maybe 'go with' their own nature (?) ... something like that ... would have the right meaning. I'm a commoner as well ... in fact commoner than most people ... that's why I just spat on the carpet .....

I kind of assumed that translators use 'follow' because the Tao is 'the Way' - so you could follow the way ... like a path or road without it being authoritarian etc. Also the word follow can mean 'be aligned to' or 'in accord with' ... I don't see the problem. People seem to have a problem with hierarchies when we live in universe which is naturally structured and has inherent grading and hierarchy (for instance the electron shells in the atom ... lots of other examples.) So you could say that a hydrogen atom follows the way of hydrogen in its chemistry for instance ... it does not behave like Calcium or Argon. However they all follow the natural laws of chemistry in their actions and reactions with one another. As human beings we are not all the same ... we have differing constitutions and personal history ... we each have to find our own way ... but this does not mean that there is no Way ... which we are all involved in.