Apech

Two quotes from Chuang Tzu

Good luck and best wishes.

Stig, I am not one for abstraction and I think the word Heaven and ideas like 'subtle realms' tend towards the supernatural if you see what I mean. However it is quite legitimate to distinguish between 'gross' and 'subtle' and its all about perspective really I think. The easiest way for me to think about all this is to consider 'energy'. Even though we can't quite say what that is of course - but physics gives us an 'in' in the sense of light or electricity - in other words a subtle unseen force - we see its effects but not it itself. Energy can exist in both a highly attenuated form (i.e stretched out fine energies which permeate all space) and also in the grossest physical manifestation e.g. a lump of granite. I would equate the most subtle form of energy with Heaven - to put it in a nut shell.

Earth conforms to Heaven. Heaven conforms to Tao and Tao conforms to its own nature. Thus Earth and Heaven are partial views. Sounding like another system is not the issue here. The issue is this "Is Tao the Ontological Essence of Life". Answer ... no! But Heaven could be seen this way.

I was thinking more of this: It is a modern distinction we make between Heaven as a realm of pure yang energy and the sky ... to the ancients they are the same (I can quote from other cultures to back this up).

OK good point ... I was thinking of the 'place where you go when you die and are happy ever after' sort of place ... which I regard as a kind of brainwashing ... But yes a realm of eternal light (which goes back to Ralis' 3rd eye thing) is about right. Then you can say that the patterns in nature ... in the earth such as the sand vibrations that Stig posted above are Earth conforming to Heaven - if we take light and sound to refer to vibrational energy.

MH, Its a real joy to read this ... so profound and direct to the point. It just makes you sit and think 'that's perfect!' As usual thanks for posting. John

Can the 3rd Eye be heaven I'm not sure but could you explain a bit more?

I've come back because it seems a little calmer now. I am still thinking that the Ontological essence is perhaps Heaven and not Tao. But we do not have a good definition of Heaven or even worse we have the confusion of Christian Heaven - which is a different idea altogether I would suggest. How does a Taoist define Heaven? Heaven conforms to Tao and is quite like Tao but also is seen as the ordering power to which Earth conforms.

Yep. I can't believe I've just logged on and this thread is just one long bickering row about Buddhism. I didn't read it all because I was loosing the will to live. See you later guys and I hope to read some interesting ideas.

lopsided Van Gogh... well its hard to stand up straight with only one ear!

Could it be that this once lofty and interesting thread has descended into everyone pointing out each others shortcomings. Leave me out because the list would be very long. I was thinking about this: Hope you get my drift. As Marbles would say - Peace and Love!

Thanks Marbles ... that '3 in 10' thing has become 'the 13' in this one. Here is the Legge version : I still don't quite get that and its obvious that most of translators don't get it either (?). For me the interesting bit is the end where the tiger and rhino can't harm him because 'there is in him no place of death'. This is like an ultimate form of self-defense. It makes me think of the Japanese swordsman who instead of attacking the opponent looks for a gap in their defense and attacks that. Looks for an opening. If there isn't one ... then he cannot harm his opponent. In the 13th Warrior film clip the man wins by presenting a false opening which his opponent attacks. The opponent is unguarded in this moment and so looses the fight. The one who moves first tends to loose - this is a kind of rule of combat (maybe).

The evening's chill, Sharp stars in the indigo, Diamonds on velvet.

Would also like to add this Chapter from LZ No. 50 I think I understand it but not entirely sure ... anyone got any thoughts?

Great wisdom Cat ... in a different way the weak dominate the strong who's instinct is to be generous and helpful. It always brings to mind the last scene of my favourite film 'The Seven Samurai' ... when the leader says that its not them (the samurai) who have won but the farmers (who were needy and helpless for most of the film). Seven Samurai last scene

A Seeker - that's a nice one Summer in the hills Trees line the purple shoulders The hot air shimmers.

due back tomorrow... armed with exotic fruit how far will mango?

Hi Starjumper, I do not have a cheering section - if people choose to agree with what I say then that's up to them. My words are not either politically correct or kind. People do bar themselves from the truth by their own confusion and ignorance. I do not rejoice in this fact or throw it as an accusation against others. It is unnecessary and a matter for regret. Just that.

You may take a short period of rest after you have swept the dojo! :lol:

I have to say I cannot imagine any good Taoist saying that people are spiritually handicapped. When LZ talks about the 'lowest type' I think we have to accept that there are a lot of people for whom the Tao holds no interest. Also it takes a kind of spiritual maturity to understand the Tao ... which by the way I would guess most of us have only to a small degree. People laugh at the Tao also because its simple and kind of earthy in its expression and some people want great truths to be elaborate and grandiose. This is only because they are confused by b/s and pretension. The main thing for me is I cannot ever imagine being pleased or happy that people are excluded from understanding in this way. For my part, although I don't really want to have much to do with many people in this world, I wish them all happiness and enlightenment. I don't mind people who have a different view to me - in fact I welcome it. Its good to talk about all this stuff and I always try to remember that at least people on here are interested in some way or another - while most people in the world seem to have worldly and selfish interests. Just thought I'd say this.

Thing I learned in Aikido - if you are open, relaxed and responsive (which looks vulnerable) you are more powerful than being rigid and muscular. Most spiritual traditions have something like this ... in Buddhism (dare I mention it) 'give victory to the other' of mind-training. By seeming to loose you win and so on.

to exchange for peace... I offer the crumbs of wrath more angry than grapes.

What do you mean by spiritually handicapped? And why do you think it good that some people cannot comprehend the Way? This seems an odd position to take to me.

I could go with that as long as its not meant to be definitive or exhaustive.