Apech

Cat, Thanks for your contribution and I can relate to lot of what you said. In short I share some of what you said and I am interested in the idea that loosening ego identity gives one issues with the world. I started to reply to more of what you said but have decided to think about it some more. Thanks again John

Wow - Cowtao well said! I agree with everything you put. Lets start the Goldisheavy appreciation society and we can vote for an early release on good behaviour.

One of my teachers used to emphasise the world as a testing ground ... I understand this and think it is true ... and I get the often uncanny 'coincidence' between inside and outside ... but there are some things I don't 'get' about it ... I think this is just my tenancy to see the world as ... well kind of a mixture of dull and disturbing (ha ha - I'm not really as bad as this sounds) ... If you could say more S-c it would help.

yes, wonderful but also 'strange' don't you think.

Kate, I can completely relate to what you are saying.

I think there is a valid conversation to be had about politics here in relation to Taoism but I found that other posters didn't seem to want to read anything that they didn't agree with already. I think GiH's suspension is regrettable but I agree that argument should not lapse into personal insult. What happened in Tibet, or what is still happening in Tibet is interesting because a small and overtly religious country has been swamped by a much larger and non-religious country. The experience of individuals and how they reflect on what it all means is, I think , valuable to us all - so I am glad the OP was made. What I can't quite get my head around is how anyone can see corporate capitalism as somehow upholding Taoist virtues.

I have been thinking about the qualities of the outer world as distinct to the inner world. I can remember distinctly when quite young becoming aware of the sameness of the outer world. What I mean by this that it doesn't matter where you travel to, the highest mountain, the deepest ocean, the strangest far flung city at the edge of nowhere fundamentally everything is the same. I don't actually mean that its the same I mean that its not different. Does this make sense to anyone? I think its important.

Shot yourself in the foot somewhat there because that is an example whereby the principle of competition can be built into a non-capitalist system. If their car industry had been set up like this then maybe they would have built Ferairris and Rolls Royces? Competition exists in nature and has nothing to do with who owns the means of production. Freedom is a state of being and has nothing to with who owns the means of production. Capitalism does not equal competition. Capitalism does not equal freedom. Despite what the propagandists would have us believe.

These are just the mechanisms of control which are solely based on the idea that one or a few people can own the means of production. Marx's analysis was right its just that his solution proved to be unworkable - while Soviet science put a man in space first, its car companies built the Trabant - that says it all.

Yes I kind of agree with you - BUT the system depends on the ability to create profit for the owner/shareholder and this is the private owner of the means of production. No one understands what happens when that profit begins to evaporate. The global economy is a kind fabrication designed to work as if the old conditions apply.

I think you are right, capitalism wins in this sense because competition for markets forces the manufacturers/service providers to improve quality, design, image and other desirables like safety. This is because the producers are competing for a limited market and they want to increase their share. The trabant is an example of what can happen if these forces do not exist in the economy. What sustains the price that the producer can charge is not so much the extra value he might put into the product (although this would determine his share of the market that exists) but the fact that demand exceeds supply. In history this has always been the case. But imagine what happens to the economic model if supply starts to catch up with demand or even outstrip it. The manufacturers have to resort to tactics like built-in obsolescence to fabricate demand. If this is an underlying factor in the world economy i.e. that it has become theoretically possible to make a car for every household on the planet then what is the car's value? I believe that much f what is happening in the world economy is sticking plaster to cover this underlying trend.

I think its a fact not a theory.

No I wouldn't because I am not a communist. But this is what Marx recommended in his 10 point program as outlined in the Communist Manifesto. Your question about value and quality is very interesting because this is the real issue for the present capitalist system.

They own the means of production (or a very large percentage).

The common ownership of the means of production. That's more or less it.

like the weeds blooming where I sowed my greatest hopes a wild west garden.

I find my self agreeing with both Kate and S-curve (because I am a non-dualist). I started a thread to discuss this but I have neglected it I suppose - I am going to post a few more thoughts later. Cheers John

I don't know why you say that you are being silly. Ultimately you are right of course and the outside is the inside. I just think that the experience of the two is quite different. In making the difference I was relating to my own experience that it was the changes in the outside world which I found particularly difficult while others found that the internal changes gave them issues.

Can anyone tell me why the thread : Interesting and gritty interview with a Tibetan monk was locked?

Shall we dance, my dear? We two can go to tango Argentinian.

Blaming immigrants for economic problems is the first resort of racism - I'm surprised to find echoes of that kind of thinking on a Taoist forum ... well no I'm not a bit surprised I'm completely gob smacked.

Churchill tried the gold standard in Britain in 1924/5 and it was a disaster. I would say that history indicates that it is not the way forward for any modern economy.

Yes that's true and maybe some people would object to all this politic. I agree about the racist language it should be dealt with but that doesn't mean the whole thread has to be locked down as this stops any reply and just leaves it there to be read. Maybe the thread could be moved to off-topic - in any case if its going to be locked then there needs to be a reason given by the mods. IMO. John. PS. Just realised its been unlocked - so thanks to Sean

Locked thread