Apech

Sorry no. The Western Four Element system has its origins in Egypt and the Four Sons of Horus later developed by influence from Mesopotamia and then Greek thought. I'm not saying no influence from Silk Route but that was later and Alexandria was only constructed towards the end of the history of Egypt. They didn't lose metal it was never an element. There are correspondencies between the two systems but you can't read across like that. One interesting comparison though is where earth is placed centrally. In Western Hermetics the substance produced by the perfect harmony of the Four Elements is the Philosophers Stones (secret of immortality amongst other things).

quite like clouds really... but hate that bastard called fog... Mist? Not forgotten.

A snowflake perhaps? And an icicle or two? Frozen things are free.

First of all - I am grateful for Taomeow and Stig for spending time on this discussion. I have learned a lot already. Obviously there are specific arrangements of both the 'elements' = 'stages of change' and of the trigrams which have specific applications. For instance the Earlier Heaven and Later Heaven pa-k'ua. If anyone is interested the book which I quoted originally "Cultivating Stillness" has diagrams showing the transformation of the trigrams from Earlier to Later Heaven ... heaven to fire and earth to water and so on. Obviously also, the development of understanding of the process of change is key. The subject matter is 'how does a non-dual source through a process of interaction of its own inherent qualities generate an apparently dual world' - or that's how I would put it. In terms of my original question - this is about reading the Wuji diagram from top down - the generation cycle of the 10,000 things. The way I explain this to myself is that as a being in this world and yet of a spiritual nature I deal both with the inner truth of the nature of spirit/the absolute/Tao and also with the (what I would call) devolved or perhaps evolved world. This world has qualities such as fire and water which exhibit themselves in cycles of change and development. However what I am more interested in is the internal alchemy route of bottom to top. And specifically the part of the diagram which shows the 'elements' arranged as they are. I am thinking here that by understanding the function of the five within myself an bringing them to a state of harmony then what arises is a state of transformational stillness. This is indicated by placing earth in the centre. Any thoughts?

be 'low' like water... reflect light like mercury here there is thunder.

Found it! Huang ting Apparently it is as elusive as you described: "The first problem associated with Huang Ting, however, is locating it - tucked away as it is in a less-trafficked fourth-floor corner of The Central, a maze-like building with a layout that is guaranteed to confound first-time visitors. Once you get there, however, the restaurant does offer pleasant views of the Singapore River and Clarke Quay." That's very mysterious! Can you give clues a la Da Vinci? (Sorry about above posts - feeling rather flippant, I think its the cold weather seeping in.) Is it not the case that one could postulate any of elements as the beginning of cycle as long as you are clear about what you are doing and what it signifies? In the Wuji diagram layout I think the central harmonizing position of the earth is the whole point given the nature of the progression of the alchemical process. This would be because it is dealing with how the individual mind/perspective is involved in the process.

Well I suppose we could start a Boethian (sp?) joining faith and reason thread/ or a Plotinus 'flight of the alone to the Alone' kind of a thing? Sufism is embedded in Islam ... and like many (all?) mystical traditions they seem to reflect the culture which they inhabit ... but it is very much a sort of in Islam and not of Islam kind of a relationship ... hence Dr. Nurbakhsh's rather dismissive answer to that question 'is it God?'. I see mystical thinking as inherently radical but keeps its head down because it knows no masters and more importantly does not want to master others. I don't want to get into the Islam is nasty thing because I think that's a bit daft ... but I agree with your argument that you cannot use Sufism to defend Islam because its so not mainstream. The other thing you cannot do, IMHO is to create your own kind of New Age universalized version of Islam which is not in accord with the mainstream and say well ... that's real Islam, the other stuff is not ... when millions and millions follow the other stuff and almost no-one agrees with your own interpretation. With regard to the 'no words' the world is crazy stuff ... well I think its easy to misunderstand this as saying don't bother to think and so on. That is not what is being said at all.

No. 5. God talked to Buddha G: Hi B: Go away! You don't exist. G: Don't be like that, I created you after all. B: No you didn't. G: Listen mate, do you know who I am? B: Om. G: Om? is that yes or no? B: Its the sound of one hand clapping. G: *thinks*(this guy's a loony) B: Hey! I heard that! G: I worked my butt off creating this world and I didn't do it so some ungrateful sod can be rude when I drop by. B: Oh yeah! And I didn't sit under this tree for this long just waiting for you to come along. G: Dick! B: Moron! G: Bitch! B: Time waster! G: Right! That's it! B: That's what? What you going to do about it, eh? G: I'm going to really mess you guys up. B: How? G: I'm going to create the internet and put TheTaoBums on it, so you guys do nothing but post on there for the rest of eternity. B: Shit! G: Stick that in your dharma matey. Ha, ha, ha. Come on Jesus we're outta here.

Taomeow, Thanks for your comments - are you sure about this last point????? A7.

Partly yes.

of the ways to peace... I prefer war. As in life - the wicked don't rest.

For what its worth I think you may have missed the point here but I don't want to start a sub-thread within an already sub-thread or whatever so I'll just say he was a nice old guy who's now dead and completely free of nuance

Hi Stig! Thanks for that ... I knew you would know something of this. Is the arrangement of elements standard? Or is this a specific to this school do you know? I also like the business of reading it 1) top to bottom (creation) 2) bottom to top (cultivation) this is excellent a mirrors something I have been working on all last year. Cheers A7. I think the central soil = earth = heart center ?????? or perhaps heart/mind is better.

Bumping my own thread. Where is Stig when you need him. I have extracted some notes on the diagram. If anyone knows any more please post link(s). Thanks A7.

I thought it was interesting for two points in relation to what was being said on here. At one point he talks about the zero that is infinity (and visa versa) and the woman interviewer says "is that infinity god?" (or similar) - and he says that you should go to the mosque for an answer to that (later agreed or church as 'it doesn't make a difference). This is not what a Muslim teacher would say as they are all about Allah after all. Secondly, despite spending his whole life in the field of psychiatric medicine he completely dismisses this as well. Also throughout the interview there was no hint of a sales pitch or any kind of suggestion that anyone should become a Sufi ... he just said that he himself 'stumbled upon it' and that if you were meant to be a Sufi you would. NB. I would just add that although I met him once and was impressed I was and am not a student of his and do not particularly think that anyone should follow him but just look at him and compare with others.

no steam, no hot tea! shout loudly at your cold friends, just to break the ice.

as the gong shudders... breakfast at the monastery bitter sweet tea steams.

I'm interested in this idea of Sufism within Islam. I've posted this link before but I really think its worth watching this interview - Dr. Nurbakhsh (despite his medical and academic qualifications clearly distances himself from science and also at one point distances himself from the 'church'.) I think that certainly his view places Sufism as distinct. Last interview Dr. Nurbakhsh This is part of his CV: "After obtaining his Psychiatric degree from the Sorbonne, Dr. Nurbakhsh was appointed professor of psychiatry at the Tehran University school of medicine, a position which he held until he retired, along with that of director of the Iranian Medical Council, president of the Iranian Association of Psychiatrists, and head of the Ruzbeh Psychiatric Hospital. He was also an honorary member of the American Psychiatrists' Association. He produced 37 scientific works in the field of psychiatry, as author, editor and translator, along with many articles in scientific journals and a compendium of instructional brochures for the use of researchers, professors and students. Throughout his life Dr. Nurbakhsh wrote extensively on Iranian gnosis and Islamic Sufism. Besides publication of his prolific writings, including biographies of the masters of the path and the principles of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order, he also sponsored numerous international conferences and seminars, the papers of which have been compiled in three compendia in English."

No there is some elucidation in the book but I was wanting more.

pretty to look at... arranges plastic flowers... then throws them away.

Being a Buddhist and Muslim must be a little confusing I would have thought ... for instance how does one apply dependent origination to Allah ... 'there is no god but god but god only arises dependent on a chain of causality with no underlying substance or reality ...' This thread is great - I'll sing that from a minaret. At the moment I am on GiH's side in the sense that I don't see that he has to declare his experience of a long list of terms. Say for instance someone had never encountered the word kundalini or done any training which had that in the title? So what? All the better - you might say - lets see what he has to say, it might be different and new and interesting. I am with the KAPers in that I don't see why they shouldn't talk about their stuff on here - but I have noticed a difficulty with criticism which they should work on - just because you think you have shakti power shining from your eye sockets doesn't mean everyone has to suspend judgement does it? Generally speaking - nothing wrong with learning techniques (like Qi Gong forms) but that's all they are - the Way is not a technique ... if it was we would all be enlightened masters by now. Techniques can be helpful but they can also blind you. No real teacher asks you for anything much (although you might end up feeling you owe them everything) - no real teacher uses 'authority' to teach. Fallacy of authority

c'est la vie en rose say what!?! it don't make no sense that foreign lingo.

For what its worth - and I hesitate to put a value on it, this is my experience regarding paying for teachings. When I learned the Qi Gong that I practice now I paid the teacher. It was not an exorbitant fee and I paid it willingly. My teacher earned a living teaching calligraphy and art as well as Qi Gong and lived modestly in a studio above a restaurant in China Town. He slept on the floor of his studio and did not display any ostentatious wealth that I was aware of. I paid gladly because I realised he had to rent the studio and that he had to eat and so on. I would probably have paid more if asked. Payment was never an issue and it was dealt with in a perfunctory way every now and then. It was similar when I learned Tai Chi from another teacher, I had to pay but it was no big deal. What I focused on was how happy I was with the teacher - were they genuine, did they know anything, could I learn from them? These were the questions I asked my self. As well as - was what they were teaching useful and 'pure' - I won't try to define what I mean by 'pure' here. That was all that mattered to me. So in principle I see nothing wrong with charging reasonable fees for teachings of a technical nature. Where I think it gets tricky is when the teacher starts to expect devotion. In my view regard for a teacher cannot be fabricated or contrived. Some systems seem to expect the learner to become a devotee or disciple - this is where I say 'thanks but no thanks'. My reason is that while I accept the historical instances of Guru/Disciple relationships such as Milarepa and Marpa for instance - this was something spontaneous and real - like falling in love it was uncontrived these people felt genuine love, respect, regard for their teacher. They didn't have to think about it and certainly they didn't need to be told what to think or feel. So much today is a kind of emotional blackmail forcing people to become devotees. Also there is marketing. If you market a teaching then the message is deliberately contrived to get a certain percentage of people to sign up and pay. Once you do this - then the teaching is impure. You start to say what people want to hear, to answer their fantasies about 'life changing' whatever - this is universally garbage. Its easy to spot for instance in the sexing up of teachings using badly understood quantum mechanics or the easy/quick way to enlightenment. This is what is bad and not the money itself. Money is just a convenient way to exchange - pieces of paper and metal which make life simpler and less arduous.

nice one!

best to all next year yellow sun on purple hills dry wind stirs the dust.