Apech

into twenty ten... goes twice, which is dual truth, proves once is enough.

it just slipped my mind an small splash in the ocean the fish got away. (Happy Christmas Haiku lovers )

inspire thoughtful verse you old man in a red coat stuck in my chimney.

Happy Christmas everyone - and thanks to all those who post interesting stuff on here - have good time!

north, south, east and west...? I know where I am going its just slipped my mind.

we shall meet again... even though we never met like water and fire.

Hi altiora, Yes you are right and nothing I have said is against Christian Mysticism - in fact I studied under a Christian teacher for many years. Most if not all Christian mystics have been subject to either persecution or some kind of doctrinal censorship by the Church I think. A.

I suppose the point about the Druids is that they were key to Celtic culture, particularly in matters of war and politics. The Romans had to destroy them in order to subjugate the Celts. Anyway you are right - they weren't too nice to the Phoenicians either. The history of Europe since the fall of the Roman empire has been various attempts to recreate it - with the Roman Catholic church at the heart of this. The European Union being the latest version. I suppose what we have to accept is that Western Mysticism is a kind of sporadic thing based on individual genius reinterpreting ancient ideas, rather than a long unbroken tradition. Maybe though, its not a bad thing for all that.

Hi Fiveelementtao, While I don't have any problems with the general thrust of what you are saying I have to disagree on a couple of points. The pagan Romans i.e. pre-Constantine, had no problems with other traditions, Egyptian, Greek and so on - which they respected and quite often appropriated for themselves (with some name changes). For instance the Egyptian religion and culture persisted right through the classical period and was only wiped out when things went Christian, I think about 4 - 5 th Century AD. Most Western traditions try to trace their lineage back to ancient Europe (particularly Egypt and Mesopotamia where the oldest written records exists) and by this back to the late neolithic period and so on. Obviously if we accept the 'out of Africa' picture of man's development then we can all trace everything to the first homo sapiens who left Africa for the Middle East after the last Ice Age. Once the Christian changed form being a minority mystical cult and became the mainstream and therefore part of the state then the oppression of non-Christians and heretics (often mystics) started. This intolerance is a feature of monotheism and is very odd for a religion of 'love thy neighbour' but well, most Christian even to this day can't see that contradiction. Now, there is no doubt that this happened but it is not unique to the West. In the East many mystical cults and minor religions were also persecuted so the question is, I suppose, was the persecution so intense in the West that it actually destroyed any transmission of teachings from the ancient world? We know that the classical tradition was rescued by the Muslims and then reintroduced into the West following the crusades and by the Moors in Spain. The product of this was the renaissance a great flowering of art and science which effectively started the process which has led to the modern world. We know that 'renaissance men' like Da Vinci were interested in mysticism, it came with the territory so to speak (ignore Dan Brown on this one!). So did they receive teachings as part of some kind of extant tradition? Maybe. Perhaps the better question is why did the West go down the scientific empiricism route rather than the inner contemplation route. The type of thinking that was to eventually produce Marx and others who cannot see any purpose in religion - and whose critique is principally aimed at what by then religion had become i.e. a system of social control with almost no mystical content. In this context mysticism goes underground and disguises itself as something else not just because of persecution but also because of ridicule. While in the East it is recognised as valid and respected culturally. The other confusing thing is the number of bogus traditions, like Freemasonry which claim to be unbroken back to Egypt when clearly they are a 16-17th Century invention. So I agree with you there.

"Oh Bhikkhus! These are my last words now. All conditioned and compounded things have the nature of decay and disintegration. With steadfast mindfulness, endeavour diligently for your own liberation."

Shaolin TV Show

People like to disagree. Its to do with identity. You say white, they say black and so on. It makes them feel like someone. Its based on basic like/dislike functionality and the fact that the accumulation of the ego is made of a kind of jumble of this stuff. Rare beings actually care about the truth more than exercising their obstinate will. But they are few and far between. So if you meet someone who just argues and argues without any wish to come to any defined truth - just thank them for the lesson and leave.

The way you express yourself is very direct and dynamic - no fault in that of course - so I can understand why people react like this sometimes. Can you explain more how it can be physical? Of course - that's why its a myth ... in some ways a personal myth as well as a cultural one - but that doesn't mean the idea has no purpose.

I was there at dawn ... where were you! I think the girl in the red dress may be more likely to offer you satisfaction anyway. Enlightenment is a cultural miss. ... and yet enlightenment is a cultural myth? Confused now.

the circles of hell crow rakes with bloody talons pecks eyes like black fire. (mmmm....Gothic )

As he picked up the dictionary the pages fell open at a well worn section on boils and pustules. "Ah!" murmured the Sage to himself, "abscess makes the heart grow fonder."

"No not on my lap!" she snapped angrily. The Sage just shrugged he was too old for embarrassment.

a) dots eat ivy b ) ivy grows up lamp posts c) more dots, more light.

University of life, mate (sniff) Suggest: Activity of the enlightened person would be based on love. Not soppy love or romantic love of course but a willingness to make themselves vulnerable for the benefit of others. Buddhists would say compassion - the reason Bodhisattvas teach (see Lino's posts above). And also uncontrived love, that is love without thinking about love.

I'm going to try again because I don't think I was understood last time. Is enlightenment a cultural myth? If something is a myth it doesn't mean the same as an untruth. It means s story which we tell ourselves which is not literal. The idea of a myth being an untruth comes from science where they say - 'oh that's a myth' meaning its not true because they attempted to take it literally. In doing this they miss the important information contained in the story. Most religion and all mysticism is full of these stories and their purpose is to illustrate how our beings which are composed of energy (Qi) work and how we relate to reality which can also be seen as energy. I'm just stating this simply to make a point and avoiding the dependent origination view. So what is the point of the cultural myth of enlightenment? As soon as we think of yourselves as being involved in some kind of process or journey it is natural to think in terms of an end, a goal. This is because our journeys on earth have this characteristic. "I'm going to the the shops, I'm going to work" and so on. So we find ourselves thinking in terms of a beginning, middle and end. This is the kind of myth we construct for ourselves to understand what we are doing. If we look from a Taoist point of view for a beginning, middle and end, then the interesting thing we find its this. As the Tao is the origin of the manifest, then everything that is manifest to us has the Tao as its origin. So we can say that the beginning of our journey is the Tao. Both in the sense of cause and starting point. Then if we look at the other end at the result, or end of our journey, we would say that this is a 'return' (as if we ever left) to the Tao. If we look at the journey, well this is the Way, the Tao itself. So beginning, middle and end are not different - Tao. This idea is not unique, it occurs in all don-dualist traditions. For instance in Tantric Buddhism you have the basis, path and its fruition. These are all Buddha-nature. In Christianity God/Jesus says "I am alpha and omega, the beginning and the end" - not mentioning that Jesus is also the 'way'. So I can agree that enlightenment is a cultural myth in the sense that I have given above. But I would refute the idea that there is no goal at all, in no sense whatsoever. But it is a special kind of goal which is always with us.

That's a little presumptuous really, I was hoping you would explain your post. That's a good question - do they ever answer?

Come back from where to where?

So is enlightenment a myth, cultural or otherwise? A myth nowadays is taken to mean something that is not true. But that's a very modern take on the word based on the running down of a whole way of thinking by the literalists of science and so on. Myth is from the Greek 'mythos' which really means a speech, story or word. So a myth is a story. A special kind of story. The language of myth relates to a kind of understanding which is different to straight forward logic. It is story about powers and the interaction of powers. Properly understood it is an illustration of energy interaction. So when the Greeks talk about Zeus coming down from Mount Olympus as a swan ... or whatever ... they are illustrating the interaction of divine power with the world through their mythology. If we believe, as they believed, that the world is composed of energy or power, a divine play of energy if you like, then these myths are full of potential to reveal to us more and more about the nature of reality. They reveal as much as science can about ourselves and the world but in a very different way. If we are engaged in spiritual work and see ourselves involved in some process of development, some kind of way or journey, then it is natural to think that this journey has an end. One day we will arrive at where we are going. Its natural because that's our experience in everyday life. In the world of matter and time we expend energy moving from point to point. Depending on the cultural nature of the particular way we are involved in we can see the end point in different ways. Nirvana, union with god, immortality and so on... the number of ways that the end point is defined is as many as there are systems. Are they all the same? As expressed no they are not. So in these ways enlightenment is a cultural myth because it is part of the narrative we give ourselves to understand the process we are engaged in. But it is not a myth in the sense of a lie, falsehood or mistake. The reason that the different ways project an end point in this way is that it is important for our understanding, or so I believe. It is possible to achieve states of being along the way which are highly energised, blissful and so on. And this can be done by moving in a certain direction (in a manner of speaking) or working in a certain way. But these states are kind of unidirectional they are not complete. A good way, a good path, develops balance leading to completion. One of the ways it does this is by providing a map on which we can place ourselves. To have a map you need an origin, the origin projects the map. To have an origin presupposes an end. Every alpha has its omega. And the end is enlightenment. In a non-dualist system the alpha, the path and the omega are not different .... Just my thoughts.

with the paper clips and also with the stapler I will pin you down.

Ah I get it now. I was just a bit puzzled by the out of context Zen And if you do meet the Buddha I would suggest you ask for teachings before you attack ... I think the "enlightenment is a cultural myth" probably deserves a thread of its own because there is much to say about that. No offense to Susan of course, but I am a bit wary of people who say things like this. To explain why would take some time and hence the new thread suggestion.