Apech

Dwai, With the greatest respect (and I mean that), I do not agree with your position. Spiritual traditions do change in expression with changes in time, environment and culture. Otherwise human history in this respect would not have so many examples of traditions and schools to draw from. Terrain is one of the most important features which impact on the style and nature of teachings in different countries and times. Of course it is true that authenticity must be protected otherwise all we will have is a New Agey free for all but if, for instance Taoism is to work (if I can use that phrase) in the modern western world then it has to provide understanding and tools to deal with those things that people experience. The teaching needs to be effective in what it does ... and this is not achieved by clinging to ancient trappings. I am not suggesting that the Tao itself is a new Tao, its just the 'ism' that changes. A.

OP is from nearly 5 years ago ... is he still around?

lust loves ego's dust gusting wind blows the dry dirt lizards sleep with snakes.

please, where is the soup? there's only water, veg and salt, boiling in that pan.

Stig, As a contribution to the conversation I would look at the term "Western Daoism" itself by examining each word carefully. The word west is a solar reference - the place where the sun sets - (from the online etymological dictionary ...perhaps an enlarged form of base *we- "to go down" (cf. Skt. avah "downward"), and thus lit. "direction in which the sun sets.") The traditional thinking is that 'West' signifies both this downwardness and an outwardness - that is a focus on the external world and of an empirical approach to the sense-world. Hence the focus in the West on the scientific method and increasing materialism (I don't use this term pejoratively). While the East is upward and inward. Daoism is obviously 'the way' or as its a 'ism' the way of following the way. So Western Daoism would be following the way with reference to how we live in the 'real' world. Or perhaps we say could say that this form of Daoism emphasises an empirical method - which would mean that we continuously test what we think we understand by trying to put it into practice and using the results of our efforts to feedback to ourselves understanding. That is to say it is less based in belief or any suspension of critical faculties - less devotional perhaps and more hard headed???? Maybe????? I think for instance we on here are very interested in what works ... you see it a lot ... questioning and challenging... can you really do this? do people really have these powers ... how do you use qi for effecting change ... and so on. Not many people seem to want to do the pure faith thing ... Anyway just some thoughts.... Cheers A.

Good thoughts RyanO. I think sometimes we all forget - when we are in dispute mode that is - that we are all more or less on a similar of not the same wavelength. Unconditional love - no idea how to define it - perhaps that's what makes it unconditional (?!?) By the way - you guys in the US - spare some love for that Turkey

So if the master in question is packing a sidearm - then he can keep all the secrets he wants (?). Why is everyone discounting the idea that some teaching is one to one, personal and relies on the right conditions to make the 'secret' revealed have any impact on the student. This would be a good reason for keeping things secret until the right time. Mysticsm isn't some kind of democracy in which freedom of information has any meaning (is it?).

Quoth the librarian, softly: "shhh!- snore no more! For you have to pay a big fine for the Harry Potter you borrowed last June and never brought back!"

forth on their own way fifth, sixth or even seventh stand in line for soup. (I like the soup theme so ....)

I'm tempted to say ... its a secret and I'm not going to tell you why I agree with most of what has already been said - BUT I think we need to remember two things. One is that in the past (and still today in some countries) mystics have been persecuted and even killed. It was necessary to conceal teachings in allegory and hidden symbols and so on - and I think this attitude still persists (East and West). The other thing is that some oral teachings are reserved for one to one initiation in order to preserve the power/impact of the teachings. For instance vajrayana mantras were kept secret - although now they are plastered all over the internet and so on - I think this was to keep them 'special' and as a way of preserving their power - so they are introduced to the pupils mind at the right time to maximum effect. So sometimes the secretiveness is not a bad thing IMO.

the jester awaits.. jingling bell and funny hat what fool wears fool's clothes?

Why? Ditto?

I don't see why you should deny yourself an enjoyable relationship just because of the age difference. Society's opinion is IMO not worth listening to. I suppose that if you see this as a long term relationship you will have to think about what will happen when he is ancient and you are still young. But if you are ok with that then that's all that matters.

look inward for truth plenty to digest in there a soup for a saint.

Hi Leon, Just some thoughts. Beware the 'out of the frying pan and into the fire effect'. Look at why retail/customer service rips your soul to shreds - what are the factors and what are the effects - try to see how and why this is happening - because otherwise you might carry these effects with you to any new situation. Very often the way out is the way through - meaning focus into the present 100% and doors will open. Think transferable skills that you can use to move things forward. Define your ideal job - perhaps by reversing every negative thing about the existing one. Also if you can't see a way to your perfect job immediately look for an intermediate step. A.

when is the next fix? Well, not yet, not yet, not yet, Wait till its broken.

OK I was only speaking generally about how people think of gods - not aimed at your post. Cheers. A.

Samantabadhra, Interesting question about deity practice and even more so because you quoted the African tradition. Obviously I have no idea where you are up to with your practice generally but I would repeat what a Kabbalah master said to me years ago. It is better to approach the gods by way of the absolute, in other words you should do plenty of emptiness or formless work before trying to use deities. That's because they can be very confusing particularly if you are not sure what you are dealing with - which is a the basis of your question. The danger of thinking that deities are 'just' aspects of your mind is that you tend to down-play them, as if they are not real powers that can affect you and your life. But of course that depends on what you mean by mind anyway. But modern thought tends towards dismissing everything that is not physical as being almost non-existent. For instance the word 'idea' to the Ancient Greeks meant something like a package of energy with form. It was a real live power which could affect peoples lives and not a dead abstract thing - which is how ideas are presented these days. So I would avoid the idea of gods/yidams as being like archetypes and so on. The Ancient Egyptians (who were probably the source of much African religion) called the gods Neters (or Netchers) and this was an all encompassing word used for everything from major cosmic gods like Ra (the sun) to underworld demons. Basically Neter means something like 'power concealed in form' its symbol being a staff wrapped in cloth. The Egyptians saw the world as being structured in three parts, the sky, the earth and the air. A fourth dimension the Dwat, or underworld was seen as being pathways of Shu (the air) within the bodies of the sky and earth. Everything that exists can be seen as having these threefold aspects. That is a sky aspect, an earth aspect and an air aspect. In philosophy these would be called the subtle (sky), the gross (earth) and the causal (air). To the Egyptians the fabric of the world was formed by the gods. They were not separate from the world but concealed within it. So natural phenomena were seen as the souls (ba) of the gods, so the sky is Nut, the earth is Geb and the air is Shu. We can apply this way of seeing things to the gods which we may wish to invoke to help us. Say for instance we wanted to attune to Thoth (Djehuti) the god of wisdom, we can acknowledge that Thoth exists in three ways. Thoth exists at the subtle level (sky) as an intelligence or power which functions above and beyond the world that we ordinarily recognize. We can also say that Thoth is manifest on the earth (gross) through places of learning, through particular animals (ibis, apes and so on) and through the manifestation of the application of know-how in our everyday world. Thirdly we can recognize that the consciousness we possess as the causal agent of being also has Thothian characteristics. So Thoth as a deity is both and at once, an intelligence in the universe, part of the manifest and also an aspect of our own minds. Working with gods requires the utmost care and respect. I would also point out that the Buddhist and Hindu traditions view and interact with deities in different ways. Cheers. A.

Stig, This is from the OBOD website: I imagine, being Druids, that they will focus on the Sun cycle (solstices and equinoxes (equinoxi??)) plus quarter days and give the student an interpretation of their meaning. There is also mention of ceremony - so I guess that they will give a practice based on these significant points in the cycle of nature. So the theory is grounded in actual practice of some kind of atunement to the natural cycle. Perhaps this is the clue to teaching Taoism - give people theory linked to simple practice perhaps related to the natural year. No idea what that would look like though. If the year cycle doesn't work then it could still be something linked to nature (maybe ?) A.

To the OP, If your girlfriend is uncomfortable then you can be more or less certain that there is something unbalanced about what you are doing. Women are very tuned into this stuff. So I would listen to her and following feeling not thinking. Retention on its own is no sort of path - what you really need to do is to tune in more to your own energy and cultivate the whole of your being, mentally, emotionally and not just physically. A.

I've had a reply from my MP saying she has contacted the Department of Health and will pursue the issue. Uncle S., Can PM you a copy if you want and will let you know what she says when full reply received. Cheers. A.

Yes, I agree. There are a lot of issues here. For instance no matter what one may say philosophically about Taoism as being universal (or perhaps non-dogma) in essence the fact is that it is culturally embedded in Ancient (and Modern) China. If you compare with Christianity for instance, where there have been 2000 years of interpretation and teachings which have been expressed through literature, architecture, values, politics and so on - to give a kind of inherent understanding of Christianity which pops up all over the place in Western culture (even for the atheists among us) - when we look at a teaching which comes from the East the whole cultural and linguistic translation becomes a problem. Its easy to make real mistakes by just getting the message wrong. Hence the whole debate over the word God, or god, or heaven or whatever ... people get really bogged down in things that don't really matter or even worse misunderstand the big picture. So some kind of appreciation of the foundations of Taoism is needed. This is true of any non-embedded system, for instance I am interested in Ancient Egypt and have to say there is an awful lot a embarrassingly bad stuff written about their beliefs. You have to go to source texts and do a lot of background work before you even begin to get a feel about the reality. Any distillation of the teachings that helps people through this stage is I think a great idea. The other thing is that, as we know, many people in the West, particularly Qi Gong and martial Arts teachers call themselves Taoists when sometimes they really mean that they have their own understanding which comes from Taoism but is unorthodox. Now I for one think this is ok - its a matter of people being aware that this is the case and using their own judgement to decide on the particular teacher - whether it is valid or not. But it is, and will remain, very confusing, particularly for people starting out - and if they can read authoritative and accessible background to Taoism it will help them make the right judgement. So I think your ideas are very valuable.

Stig, I liked your paper and I think you have correctly identifies a 'problem' that people have in getting access to Taoist teachings. But I'm not sure about the solution. I wonder if we need to distinguish between study and practice. I think a correspondence course could give people knowledge of the resources available and guide them through the study of key texts - it could also deal with the history and context of Taoism - but I don't know about teaching in the sense of spiritual development which is usually a personal an done to one thing. So I think you could deal with access to teachings but not access teachers if you see what I mean. A.

feast on the sublime.. or chew on something mundane, sip the middle way.