Apech

Granted. You wake up one morning with six hands. Unfortunately your brain takes time to adapt. In the first few days you can't control the hands which seem to have minds of their own. You are arrested for shop lifting and indecent assault. But the judge is lenient with his three months jail sentence but only for two of your hands. When you get out things get better. You make a fortune at virtuoso piano playing, speed touch typing and you are a big hit with women (I don't have to explain why). Now it is cool to have six hands. So cool that you take up smoking. But your hands get envious of the one that holds the cigarette - to appease them you have to smoke six at once and quickly you die from lung disease. But hey it was good while it lasted. I wish I could stop wishing for things.

The ontological gap, that is the gap between our perception of the world and an objectively real world is a problem that Western Philosophy has grappled with repeatedly. It is based on an apparent duality between subjective truth and objective truth. It is true to say that epistemologically that coming to know what I know is a subjective truth. The phenomenologists say that anything that could be said about an real object could equally be said about the perception of the object - in a way rather like Theravada it is saying that there are only mental events. The problem is that we are searching for what is real. Our common sense tells us that there is an objective universe - but this is because we perceive things as real, having substance, location, form and so on. Spinoza attempted to overcome this problem by saying that reality is one substance with two attributes - intellect and extension. In other words our minds and the outer reality are actually attributes of this one substance = God. I think Taoism does something similar but without falling into the hidden monism that Spinoza has. The only real real (if you like) is the Tao. Everything else is partial. The red ball on the table and you looking at it are partial or perhaps aspects of the Tao. While the Tao is ultimately real, neither you nor the ball are. Is the ball there because you are looking or are you looking because the ball is there? All situations and the qualities of all situations are seen as relative. Red only exists because of not-red, ball because of not-ball, you because of not-you. Existentialism had some of this thinking. But in Taoism there is the 'way' itself. When you ask how did this arise - you answer that there is a 'way' - like a never ending process, like the flowing of water of which this situation of seeing the red ball is part. I think that's more or less it.

Granted! A space time wormhole sucks you back in time to the 1960's - you are standing in muddy field with 100,000 hippies, Hendrix is playing Purple Haze, you have just smoked a strange cigarette and the sky has turned a weird shade of orange ... someone says "Hey man, far out!" ... but suddenly the wormhole collapses and you are back home. I wish I had a way of stopping Buddhists arguing with Taoists on here.

Seth, Your post was very moving. Thank you for sharing this with us. A.

Expect no, hope for - yes!

Congrats everyone - 9 pages of bickering with no result. Don't you realize there are people on other threads getting on with the hard work of masturbation in the morning, having sex with entities and trying to keep an erection while in bed with a beautiful woman while you lot are arguing about abstract principles. Wake up and smell the semen!

Its 5,7,5 syllables so it would have to be: But in its players Unaware of their part in the game, something stirs. The game, something stirs our minds, like a wave of joy, with hope beyond hope.

"A rose and a tulip at the same time of year, what does he think I am, a magician?" muttered the gardener sulkily. But even so he went the greenhouse and found remarkably that the very flowers had burst suddenly into bloom. "Well knock me down with a shovel!" he exclaimed in surprise and set to and cut the flowers as requested.

Granted! Now they stand staring at you with unbearable intensity and will not move an inch without your instruction. You forget to dismiss them one day and they follow you blindly as you leave to go home. Not realizing this you dodge across a busy road - behind you it is a blood bath as a lorry carrying aid for the third world smashes into them. As you run back to help they mutter their last breath "Master, what do we do now?" I wish I could win "Britain's got talent".

Granted! You have an extra-sensory ability to detect the best games consoles. Your decision making is so uncanny and accurate that Microsoft head hunt you for a six figure salary. You become absorbed into the corporate world of techno geeks. You wear chunky jumpers and have thick rimmed specs - suddenly women seem like another species, you stutter and look at your shoes whenever they approach. You move back in with your parents and take up stamp collecting and your only social interaction is via a Nintendo Wii. You are last seen waving your control stick in a questionable gesture of a solo sexual nature. I wish we could roll back time to the 1970s.

Granted. You become obsessed by hours and hours of pussy talk until you can think of nothing else ... except pussy. Your girlfriend says "You've changed ... you used to be so ...oh never mind ... just pack your bags and go you perv!" I wish that I could think of something to wish for.

Zhou, I thought about this because I had the same kind of problem. However, in the end I answered in the positive on the balance of possibility. I take a broad definition of entity as I take the nature of reality to be something like a field of energy (shorthand version!) and that all beings, human, animal, plants are zones of specific vibration or energy pattern. It is therefore possible to have entities which do not possess corporeal bodies in the way we do and exist in a way very different to the ordinary (and therefore limited) human existence. The test for 'real' in this case is not the same as the test for real for another human i.e. you can see, touch, smell etc. and talk to them. I believe therefore in non-human intelligences which exist but which have a different set of rules determining their reality. What for us may be a dream, for instance could be real for them if you see what I mean. You could always argue, as a Buddhist would that these beings do not have selves and therefor are not existent but then that same argument applies to you and me, so in the ordinary sense of the word both us and they do exist. A.

I was always taught that religion is from 're' - meaning again. and 'ligere' - meaning to link or bind; thus meaning 'to link back again' - rather like yoga = yoke 'to link or bind'. I think this is non-standard etymology. In this sense I think that my Taoism is a religion, but if you mean some kind of organization of people sharing a belief - no, because I don't particularly care what other people choose to believe (although I am interested).

wonder what you are? Just dependent arising - according to some. (NB. this Haiku is not compatible with a mysterious monist source Haiku ... and that's final!)

tuning, resonate singing in a field of sound scintillating stars.

Ok, Well, I think the Wiccans left it very late in the day start having scruples. My bet is that they realized that one old crone with a couple of spells to turn goat's milk sour and give you boils on the nose was not enough against a fully armed Samurai warrior! I'm off to buy an Amstrad PCW (with my own money!) I need computing power and I need it now!

Ok, I had lined up sponsorship and global TV rights - the bout was to be known as the Pepsi Dharma Challenge and Rupert Murdoch was offering 30 million for pay per view. But then I read this thread (and others) and realised what a non event it would be compared to the wasps and bees buzzing round here. Shame - I was hoping for a Commodor 64 ... but I will have to wait.

You like to argue don't you.

Did you read my final paragraph? What is this 'from its own side' - the Tao doesn't have sides. If the views were completely compatible and interchangable then they would be the same and Taoism would = Buddhism - of course they are distinct and different but that does not mean that either is inherently flawed. Indeed it would be possible for a Taoist to say that Buddhism overlooks the subtleties of the Tao and is forced to reintroduce at a later date Buddha-nature and the Dharma-kaya as emanating positive qualities. Dependent origination is a powerful view for removing attachment but it is not replacement for realization is it? Stig, Maybe we could say the superior view sees the compatibility of the incompatible, while the inferior view rejects what it cannot encompass.

"Oi! Wait for me," shouted the gardener, pushing his large wheelbarrow, "I may be a simple working man but I want the truth too you know!"

OK. What do Taoists and Buddhists hold in common? I think that Buddhism has a unique starting point. It starts with a kind of existential question, that is, what is the nature of this world in which we find ourselves and why is it not enough, why is it not satisfactory? This is why the Buddha first taught by means of the Four Noble Truths, by describing why this world we perceive is not enough and does not give us either true lasting happiness or enlightenment. His solution was to liberate your mind through non-attachment in Nirvana. This really was a way of speaking because in the process of enlightenment you would come to realise that the things to which you are attached are not what they appear to be, that is they are illusory in that they have no 'self'. This includes you, you have no-self as well. Dependent origination is the philosophical basis for describing how we come to perceive the world in the way we do - as consisting of separate self-existing objects in space - and to show that this is mistaken and that the things we perceive do not have that independent autonomous existence which they appear to have. Because of this they are not worthy of clinging on to. If we convince ourselves of this truth then we can happily let go of things and situations, free ourselves up enough to be able to see through appearance to the truth. The suffering which is much spoken of is just the effect of living in a way which places its security or happiness in these illusory objects. This kind of analysis and position only arises if you start where Buddhism starts, that is with the world in which we find ourselves. All other religions start somewhere else. They start with acknowledging a power (however named) as the origin of the world. A creator of the world. And then from this point describing the process of creation, or how things came to be as a result of the activity of this power. From here they also speak of the nature of this power and our relation to it. This may be the kind of father/child relation promoted by organised religion or may be a deeper understanding as seen in mystical thought. This kind of thinking is evident in both monotheistic and polytheistic religions. For this argument it doesn't really matter if the creator is seen as one or many, there is still a named power which is the origin. Where Taoism stands apart from both of these is that it does not begin with either the nature of world and suffering, or with the originating power. It starts with describing the "Way", the way in which things arise, the way in which Heaven and Earth arise and how everything can be seen as relative (ugly/beautiful, long/short and so on) and as the interaction of polarised energies (yin and yang) which interact in patterns and cycles. By understanding the way in which this happens it is possible, on a personal level to follow this way, to act through non-action and so on, the effect of which is spiritual awareness of the profundity of this way and also increased health, strength and longevity. Taoism does not really state that the Tao is the originating power as in theism. It does not personify the power in the way for instance, Christianity does. On the other hand it does not abstract the Tao, it is not posited as an alternative to this world as Nirvana is and it is not some kind of substance or essence. The Tao is real but it is beyond concept and therefore beyond 'name'. Naming things is seen as the origin of things, whereas the eternally unknown is the 'nameless', the Tao permeates (if you like) both the named and the nameless but not in an abstract way. The Tao is real and therefore cannot reified (since reification = treating an abstract as real). That is not to say that no Taoist has ever fallen into this error - they probably have. In some ways Buddhism and Taoism are compatible which has been shown historically by their being side by side in China for such a length of time. It is quite legitimate (in my view) for Buddhist to look at Taoism without compromising their own positions and to take the best from it. And the same is possible for Taoists when looking at Buddhism. However in doing this we must understand that each way of thought is a self-consistent whole and it is not really possible to swap concepts without a great deal of care. Overall I would say there is more positives to learn from each system than grounds for dispute. In this dialogue Buddhists should be Buddhist about it - that is hold to their view while being unattached to the outcome - while Taoists should be Taoist about it - that is understand that it is all part of ebb and flow of ever changing energy, that what seems to be the stronger argument now only exists because the weaker exists and that in time these two will change position. In peace. A.

The youngest major religion in the world is Sikhism - or so I am told. Its probably time for another one.

ZX81? I upgraded to a Spectrum days ago. Those rubber keys are killing me. I have provisionally booked the Olympic Stadium Rio De Janeiro (I know this might not be available for some time) but it has a big Jesus which I felt would add balance to the event. I did memo this to you via Telepathic Inc.'s "Mind-to-Mind" introductory free service ... so perhaps you should review your own memory log rather than accusing me of inactivity ... although they did advise me that the recipient must have a high level of sensitivity - so perhaps a look in the mirror on that one, eh? I think we need a warm up bout from the minor religions to get the crowd ready for the big event. I wondered about Shinto vs. Wiccans ... what do you think? Should be plenty of blood and flesh on display which is what people look for these days. Done it.