NeutralWire

He might well have done during the war, the point is we don't know. Whereas the healings in Opava were, as I said, a matter of public record. They included politicians and artistic figures, etc. Well that's a gross misreading of Bardon's position. The idea is very much to have will and autonomy of one's own -- indeed to have a strong personal will is the magicians' first goal. You place that will at the service of the source of all things, that's all. Why not? I mean I don't know of anything greater than that to serve...? And everything serves it anyhow in the end, it's just whether you try to do so consciously. In the hope that it might clarify his position, I thought I would transcribe some of Bardon's notes on the cosmic letter 'R': But, honestly, if you really have such a bad reaction to the way these things seem in Bardon, there's no need to study his stuff! Personally, as I have gone on with it, I've seen clearly what he meant, and it certainly isn't constrictive of my freedom as it appears to me. (On the contrary!) But there's no need to react against him as if he were some false authority figure... if he doesn't appeal, move on! You certainly are at liberty not to believe those who say they have achieved this. As for the idea that 'anyone who claims to know the Tao, does not know it,' -- you seem to be suggesting that to come into full contact and union with the Tao/God etc. is impossible? I don't propose to enter into a long argument about this, since I don't see it as my job to persuade you, but as far as 'page 1 line 1' of the Tao Te Ching is concerned -- I can assure you that Rawn Clark understands it on the most intimate of levels as a careful reading of this page, for example: http://www.abardoncompanion.com/IIH-Step10.html ... (where he speaks about this 'union' in layman's terms) will show. Tao Te Ching is no 'evidence against' enlightenment by the Bardon method in my opinion. This is my last post on this subject, though; I can add nothing further to what I've already said. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

We just had a thread about exactly that, many good points, it'll be around somewhere. You would have to ask the people concerned. Do you actually know anyone who has 'turned to the dark side'? NW

Personally I pray to keep devoted to my life and give thanks, I don't do 'issues prayers' or however you want to say that... To me giving thanks is like empowering the good, that's all I use this practice for personally. It opens the heart I guess. My practice is totally non-religious but this cross-cultural book is full of interesting prayers: http://www.amazon.com/Earth-Prayers-around...9299&sr=1-1 (... I like some more than others. ) I find prayer is energizing, it increases devotion and receptiveness... I'm considering praying to some deities at some point later in my practice, but right now I address prayers to the earth and life in general really, esp. nature. Sometimes I write poetry along those lines too, which was inspired by that book partly and also by ancient poetry and Hermetic prayers I read in various places. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

I also would like to back up fiveelementtao's response which is absolutely spot on, especially his remarks about symbiosis. You will recover! Therapy is vital, self-knowledge the only cure -- believe this! I wish that, on this forum, there was a space where people could post out of the 'line of fire' of more boisterous characters. Maybe you can use a private practice space for this? It is good to be able to rely on the support of the forum, and I for one promise support and encouragement to you if you decide to work on this in therapy, and possibly also by other means. Furthermore, I have experience with negative entities as well and there are things you can do which will help as you go through the experience of understanding. I especially recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Cleansing-...7136&sr=1-1 ... 'Spiritual Cleansing' by Mickaharic, which helps to keep your aura and your living space spiritually clean. But fiveelementtao is absolutely right -- you have to have the courage to find the issues inside you, which allow the entity house-room. These entities live in environments within our souls where they feel nurtured. Once you change your inner environment, the entity will be forced to leave. Good luck! And like I say, I recommend taking a practice space for yourself on this forum, and I for one will read everything you write and help as best I can. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

baloneyx - I actually meditated on this very subject today and I thought of a couple more things to say. Number one is that the very first thing you do with Bardon is completely understand all the inner workings of your psyche. After that, you are working everything in your life and especially magic from an extremely personal place. A place which is hard to speak of, and which can lose force if you access it glibly. Number two: this is just my opinion, but Rawn actually demonstrated magic many times on his forum, it was just that people didn't always notice. When I first emailed him years ago, his response showed me something about my character which I had been trying to work on but hadn't yet seen -- and which I hadn't mentioned to him. I realized that he could clearly see my soul without ever having met me. After that, did I need to seem him throw fireballs in order to believe? Rawn saw the soul of every single person who wrote on that forum, and he wrote his answers to a very deep place. In the end perseverance is definitely important, but creativity and a personal approach have proved really important for me as well. Decent qigong and zazen skills first (which latter skill Rawn also had BTW), and constant experimentation with self-improvement methods are excellent helps. If I could give one piece of advice to anyone taking up Bardon: we live in an age where there are a million psychological techniques, from NLP to storytelling to hypnosis to Aspectics to EFT etc. etc. Try them, and if possible, change just one thing about yourself through a self-knowledge technique, to show yourself it can be done, and to have the joy of having done it. EDIT: just saw this: Every single human being's greatest delight is to serve divine providence/flow with tao, however you want to look at it. It is turning away from this which produces unhappiness -- why would you want to stop doing it? The very reason you have even chosen to come here to this earth is to 'serve divine providence', that is, to fulfill your destiny. When you begin to flow with the truth you start to enjoy yourself as a human being, to see what being a human being is. It isn't a question of 'taking care of divine providence', but of allowing oneself to be taken care of by it. Tat: Why then, Father, did God not give Mind to all people? Hermes: He wished, Child, to set it up in the midst of souls -- like a prize. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

It is so you can serve Divine Providence and your fellow human beings. Out of love. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

I believe I've said not only all I can on this but more than you have managed to understand... To gather the traditions of Hermetics, Kundalini Yoga, Celtic magic, and Islam (to name only four) under the ridiculously inadequate banner of 'bliss techniques' would be laughable. It is just plain nonsense. The absolute beginning of Bardon's technique, step 1, is the itemising of every single fault and virtue in your soul. Does this sound like 'covering your underlying emotions'? On the contrary, you must deal with all of your emotions and be a totally balanced human being in his system before you can even begin energy work, never mind venturing through the spheres. I'll say it only once more: if someone said this to me I would first laugh, assuming a joke, and if there was no answering laugh, I would politely excuse myself. But we are all free to use our wills how we like! Good luck, ~NeutralWire~

I'm sorry, there's no link I know of. What I did not get in private correspondence, I got from 'Memories of Franz Bardon', a worthwhile book if you are curious. I suppose I can give one for Rawn Clark's survey however: http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Questionnaire-Report.html All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Ralis - Bardon's cures of many supposedly incurable ailments in Opava, both before and after the war, are a matter of public record. I'm talking about things like this. I believe he also achieved a great deal more, but if you are skeptical I won't press the issue! Bardon wrote a training system, like the training systems to be found all over the world. It's a series of exercises whose object is (in Western terms) union with the creator. (But in case you hadn't noticed, so are most other systems people practice around here.) Rawn Clark and two other public teachers have gone all the way through the system. Clark conducted a survey of 500 people a while back which showed that 14 respondents had achieved step 10 of the system, meaning a union with God/Tao whatever you want to call it. This answers not only the question of what his students have done but of course, also the one of what good Bardon himself did! He wrote a system which, for those who like it, works very well for this purpose. Of course, this assumes you believe the word of all these different people! One is at liberty not to, clearly. Based on my own experience, I have found Bardon very trustworthy. (Rawn Clark too for that matter.) baloneyx - I practice it as my main practice and I would say I have definitely seen significant results. But I would not put it in terms of 'what I can do', but in terms of what I have learned and experienced, and especially, who I have become. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Well we don't want to have a rather dull argument here! I will just say: it is emphatically not the case that gods and angels, etc. are the creations of humanity. But I'll only say it once, promise. One does indeed -- but this is in terms of the clothing and not the substance. You do in fact see the substance with these systems (well the esoteric ones anyhow, I can't speak for Jungian analysis). The communication of that substance goes through the cultural system, absolutely. I guarantee you that the 'uncarved wood' is visible through the carving with all these systems though. Again I won't go on and on about it. ... the substance is extremely complex and indeed infinitely explorable -- but that doesn't mean there aren't certain hard facts available! On the contrary, what it means is that you can't exhaust the facts. Again I disagree with your implication, which is that I gave an 'absolute verbal description of it all' -- I didn't. Rawn Clark would agree with you that anything said about the universe, especially from the point of view of an infinite unity, is bound to be misleading. Where I think he'd disagree (where I would anyway) is with the idea that because there is more to discover, somehow what has already been discovered is untrue. We all have three tan tiens, seven chakras, and so forth. These things are changing, evolving structures, but they are nonetheless -- structures! Just as certain numbers of arms, legs, and so on, are structures in a human body. It is the very fact that these structures exist and have been identified and used for enlightenment purposes which makes spiritual traditions possible. The universe, in short, is infinite but far from unstructured! It is packed with harmony. Spiritual traditions see some of that harmony -- to be precise, enough of it to be able to pass on and be worth preserving. Some things are peculiar to single traditions, but other things have been more generally observed by multitudes of spiritual explorers from multiple traditions. Those things are simply, reliably the case. It doesn't mean there's no more to discover. What it does mean is that 'absolute verbal descriptions' of those things that have proved reliably true are far from 'completely useless' -- in fact I would say they are essential to the human race and constitute easily its most important achievements. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Emphatically not 'possession'. The spirit which occupied the body of Franz Bardon was responsible for more good than I will ever be, or than most of us will ever know. But a 'walk-in' you could say, sure. It was at the behest of the boy's own father that this occurred -- the father wished to meet a guru. A deal was struck. The boy who originally occupied the body got a more favourable incarnation elsewhere. We all are so beholden. Divine Providence and the Tao are one and the same thing. It is what supports and nurtures every thing in the universe. The wise have a personal relationship with it, and we all should live to be so blessed say I! All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Hey Sunshine - Let me just address this: Essentially what you're arguing is that the entire structure of the universe in both microcosm and macrocosm is going to change so that what used to be true is now wrong? The number of traditions which progress through a series of spheres on the way to the formless is very large -- I only mentioned a few I know of. Now this argument you've been given is, the further you progress into what you think is enlightenment, the more you're actually binding yourself in with the 'Lords of Form', and at the end of the process it's 'too late' and you're 'theirs'. Right? In actual fact though: Each sphere you go through is more rarefied than the physical and than the last. Whatever tradition you're speaking of, earth is the beginning and it is most dense. You move away from form. How can you simultaneously move away from form and also become more trapped in form? The reason you progress through such a system is to refine yourself for the greater crossing into formlessness. That's true of every system I mentioned. Let's take Hermetics, the one I know best. You progress through the spheres and then at a certain point you manage to go past finity, past sequentialization, past form (known as 'crossing the Abyss') and are presented with the underlying reality. This is exactly what Rawn Clark, for example, describes, and this must have happened to him reasonably recently! Therefore the rules haven't changed. Of course not. The point is that the previous gradual stepping up through the spheres prepares you for the great moment when you are able to leave form behind. It is the very opposite of being trapped in form. Yes, you do become aware of a hierarchy of powers and divine entities, etc., on your way. But no, you absolutely do not get caught up with them in some kind of eternal damnation! It is manifest nonsense, as well, that the 'Lords of Form' should be seen as somehow 'bad guys', controlling the human race against the will of God. On the contrary, these Lords fulfill the role God lays out, as do all things. They do indeed prevent some from full realization for a while -- to be precise, they prevent those who are not ready. Those who have more to learn must wait, and that is the only reason one couldn't 'attain the Tao' by such methods as these -- it is nothing to do with being trapped by a practice and everything to do with needing to learn more and be wiser. Just good, simple human stuff. The hierarchy of divine beings that one learns about on the way up all without exception is fulfilling God's will. Awareness of them expands one as an individual and one becomes more and more ready, from what one learns, for the great crossing. And if it's true of Hermetics, it's definitely true of Kundalini yoga. The stuff I learned from Glenn Morris worked very similarly -- there is an ascent and there are levels of the universe -- there always have been and there always will be. These things are not going to change just because there is a 'new age' on earth! People are still using these methods right now for enlightenment. The entire hierarchy of angels and genii and gods is not going to suddenly become an evil entrapment for humanity, and the celestial spheres are not suddenly going to warp out of shape! All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Believe it or not, what you got there was my diplomatic version! The idea that ascending through chakras or spheres is some kind of delusion will dismiss just about every spiritual tradition from Hermetics to Celtic stuff to Islam. It's worse than merely wrong, to suggest such a thing argues either colossal ignorance or massive delusion. It puts some of the best and truest work done by our race in the crapper without a second thought. The problem is that people can just disseminate this and the average schmoe can't tell it apart from something real. People who know no better buy it and have to spend years untwisting it all. You could get in serious trouble. ~NeutralWire~

Sorry my last contribution was rude and I thought better of it. Bottom line: this is complete and utter rubbish. Plus: Alice Bailey was about as grounded as a fruit loop in orbit. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

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Soya milk in our house. My lovely lady is Chinese and remembers her mum actually making soya milk from soya nuts. We've not done it yet but I'd be interested giving that a try.

We are not heading for a road warrior future! It's absolutely true that power will be bad news. Instead of merely quaking in one's boots, one could do something. Investigate the Transition Town movement, which gathers people together in local areas to prepare for a post-oil future. There are now well over a hundred Transition Towns in the world, most in the UK but including some in the US, Australia, and further afield. The process of initializing a sustainable future in your local area has been honed to a fine art. Is your area next? Check it out: http://transitiontowns.org/ They say: You don't have to be ignorantly assuming chaos! The world is going to go on. Be amongst the people who are looking at solutions rather than screaming problems. You will be amazed what can be done. And start reading the Archdruid! http://www.thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com John Michael Greer is not only head of a famous American Druid order, he also has written on the Kabbalah and he practices nei gung plus rare Yang form t'ai chi (so he told me). And for the last few years he has offered the most insightful work on peak oil and the upcoming energy and food shortages. Prepare for the deindustrial, ecotechnic future, concentrate on relearning crafts, start growing veggies and work out how to exist with less. He is the kind of guy any Tao Bum can relate to, and he has been researching this since the 70s. Be informed not scared. And I don't need to tell you to redouble your practice efforts -- life tends to look after those who make a good faith attempt to look after it. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

That's interesting... I never heard it before. In Hermetics what you are speaking about is called 'yearning for perfection'. Would you say that, by and large, most Buddhists worldwide would agree with what you say here? Or would many Buddhists think that the 'suffering' referred to is indeed more of the physical variety? I always thought that the Shakyamuni legends, with their emphasis on his initial protection from scenes of earthly misery, illness and death, followed by that sudden revelation of their existence, were meant to show that said misery, illness and death were the sum of human life on earth and the very definition of 'suffering'. If what you say is true, they could be said to have awakened in him simply a yearning, a feeling that there 'must be something more', which I find far more humane. I must admit, one of the reasons I never investigated Buddhism was this concept of 'suffering', which (as it had been presented to me before) seemed extremely negative to me. I'd be happier if yearning and suffering were identified, but I still prefer the word 'yearning'. 'Suffering' still sounds too negative to me really, but 'yearning for a greater reality', 'the call of the infinite for soul to understand deeply' -- this I do understand. 'Things being ultimately unsatisfying' as a reason to practice is not really as motivating as 'finding satisfaction in self-perfection'... but this is just me. In the west (as in Taoism) 'life with a perfectly harmonious flow' is often seen as the goal as well, in other words, the cultivation of earthly destiny is as important as the heavenly one. If what you say is true, then that perspective would harmonize better with Buddhism than I had previously thought -- whereas if 'suffering' really were starvation and pain, this would suggest that earthly life itself has no ultimate meaning, an idea I think is misplaced... Rambling! All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

... well with this difference between 'gross' and 'subtle' intentions we are pretty much there. Oh no, that's easy...

Well CarsonZi, I think that you agreed with the idea that 'letting go of success is what brings success', and as far as I'm concerned, every single other difference between us is actually a practicing or a vocabulary difference, not a real difference of understanding. Bardon is an Hermetic (magical) practice, so it is literally all about training the intent. Of course, he gives clear instructions how he does healing and you do indeed begin with intent. Everything in magic always begins with intent because the idea is to build up the strength of the will. For example, your self-knowledge practice is about events teaching you. But Bardon begins by having one meditate on all your faults and virtues, and (implicitly) at that point you already have the intent to deal with every single one of them! So if you have fear of failure, it will be rooted out right away. But you still have intent to succeed! It's a difference in method. I totally agree that if you 'fail to learn,' life will teach you, and Bardon would have agreed also. But nonetheless in Bardon you do seek and intend to learn from self-knowledge. Because of the magical nature of the practice, this seeking is not the same as 'seeking success' in a regular egotistical way -- as I mentioned, you have to let go of those ideas to have success! But it is still seeking a result -- just not looking for it, worrying about it, etc. It is allowed to arise gradually and naturally. Even the common (mis-)conception about 'magic spells' includes the obvious fact that there is intent in them. But all magicians know that if you think about the result, it doesn't appear. If you think about it, this fact about intention is true of many other practices as well -- for example, the intention to open the microcosmic orbit if you know about that. If you force it, if you try to make it happen, nothing happens. But you can still have the intent, without the force (=fear). With Bardon, similarly, you do energy work with organs or areas of your body, different types of energy... impossible to do this without intent as such, but still, to be in the state where you just flow and 'it happens' is very necessary. In other words, there is no 'should' or trying to force it. This 'should' or seeking of results is not the same as intent - or magical will as it is often known. I think it is natural for some practitioners to feel intent starts to be 'trying to overrule reality' but there are other types of practice where intent is harmonizing with reality, and Bardon (to me) is the King of such practices. Interesting conversation! I hope that I haven't poked around too much in your opinions. Like you, I'm very interested in variety... All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Hey CarsonZi - Well yes, this makes much more sense to me. (Of course you already know, as I have repeated many times, that I don't believe in 'beating oneself up over failure' -- this was the point of the cheetah example. I don't attach to outcomes as I believe I mentioned.) Some things in your point of view do remain a little unclear though. Going back to what you said before, we were talking about 'seeking'. And you said: So I would like to ask more on this. You believe that 'learning from mistakes is necessary'. Now my 1st question is: do you seek to learn from mistakes? My 2nd question has to do with Bardon. I know you said you know little about him, but he was one of those who had a very 'interesting life', tortured by the Nazis in concentration camps and so forth, and also cured many people of difficult illnesses and things like that. So my 2nd question is: let us say he wants to cure somebody. Does he 'seek' to cure somebody? Is that his 'intention'? All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Personally I think you can relax on that one. In fact I do the same! It's about discernment surely -- you don't need to listen to shock jock stations to write about pet rescue...

Hey CarsonZi Oh don't give that another thought! All that disappoints me though is where you say: ... because I really thought I understood. But perhaps I really don't! Help me out here... clarify a little more. For example you said: ... now what do you mean by that? For me, it seems that success and failure exist and that they matter. Perhaps one could also take the view though, that although they exist they do not have any real significance. Or do you mean that they simply don't exist, they are meaningless words? Just out of interest! ~NeutralWire~

I hope I don't sound patronizing, but you're just where I was a couple of years back. I was also studying hypnotherapy. I began to get very scared seeing just how much in my life was programmed in... stuff from sitcoms had been hanging out in my brain and gathering energy. Now? No TV, no movies. Still plenty of net but it if doesn't have that spark of decency... lots of reading, lots of hanging out. The thing is, the people who make TV can be somewhat ignorant. I'm with you, I don't want them in my mind. After you have learned to meditate it's less of a problem, but ordinary people have no defense at all most of the time. It's not all bad -- some very good people on here are named after Star Wars characters after all! -- but let's face it, for real mind food, you can do better. I applaud and encourage your decision to look at your idea diet the way so many look at their food. Not that I'm anyone in particular, but what the hey. ~NeutralWire~

Hi Durkhrod Choguri: I found this difficult to read, in fact I couldn't. Too judgmental. Oh it's overstating! The vehemence of the young and correct! It is the statement of someone who is angry, who says, it should all be different! A more virulent form of this kind of self-righteousness will land you in jihadland. There's plenty around. To me our society is simply: dying. When something is dying which has done so much, seen so much, yes not always behaved perfectly but certainly done plenty that was interesting and even admirable -- is this the sendoff? Perhaps some Taoists are very hardline and they think anything that dies upon this earth should be more cultivated and not die? So anything that dies is suicidal? I don't think so... I think our society is ill, and it is on its deathbed. That's all. It might go out angry, it's going to fragment, but to die when the time comes is not suicide, it's death. As our technological culture gradually loses its vitality and peters out, for me it is a time to act as we would upon the death of anything we know well. Vicious moods of recrimination could spoil the wake. Its time has come. Kubler-Ross would say you have five stages to get through: anger, denial, bargaining, depression, acceptance. The right-hand end of the list is the only peaceful point on it... angry, argumentative taoists in denial? A sitcom maybe, but not a way forward. "Trying to change it, you damage it" says Lao Tzu. There's much to do in the new world that we're moving into. The dark age will be more spiritual, like all dark ages, and (although very difficult to live through in lots of ways) will have the seeds of the new society in it. And that eventual new society will look very different and have a different philosophy. And it'll tell some interesting stories about us! It will be born, and continue, and in the end die in its turn. Something like this: ... is in need of some sound belly thinking in reply to the hotheadedness. Our society is still composed of people and ideas and energy and stuff moving around, most could be wiser, but black pots shouldn't throw the first stone. How much easier and more productive to start improvising one's own new way forward, to live as co-operatively as possible with all around, and to begin the process of seeing what will work for the generations ahead. I recommend these links: http://www.transitiontowns.org/ http://www.thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~