NeutralWire

Good one! To me romantic love is something which occurs because of the incompleteness of being in a sexed body. Certain destinies are implied by this, by deep emotions stored in etheric body (jing level) that can only be accessed if you are recognized by someone of the opposite sex and something is shared and transformed. Those emotions are inherited through many generations. There is definitely an 'intention in the flesh' to continue the line. Heartache does make sense from this point of view -- perfect sense! The body yearns for that continuation and for that completion. You just have to accord to the body that level of wisdom, where it sees and understands what it is yearning for. Also though, you still have to work with it. You still have to have will in the situation. In Hermetics they say, 'Love is the Law, but Love under a strong Will.' Immunity from romantic love is conferred by high training, so the disadvantages of it are very much known. In the Hermetic 'Poemandres' scripture it says: "Love is the cause of death, but Love is All." You can't ignore love but you can transcend it with greater and more selfless love. In magic love is to do with the water element. 'God' loves all things equally, with infinite intensity -- but also with perfect humility. That I find interesting. In Hermetics there seems to be much training of this for the advanced practitioner, as they deal with Undines (Water spirits) and later with spirits from the Venus sphere, which are both notorious for their erotic and loving abilities. You find all you seek, but not yet God -- so you must learn to prioritize! It's hard work either way. But it's also glorious. To me it's to do with very important things in the core of human race itself, so you can't avoid it. You have to learn from it though, get it under control, and not let it make you crazy. Stay plugged in to the neutral wire. I think in the end sticking to a higher spiritual love starts to ameliorate mundane or romantic love and turn it into something else. This has been my method and it works, but like all transformations of one's humanity, you need to stick with and keep your inspiration the highest you can imagine. I hope this helps! My perspective is Bardonist but I look forward to the ideas of those who are following Taoist paths. When Taoism was making its way into the western culture in the 80s, it did promise some more understanding of love. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ PS: Bill Mistele (www.lava.net/~pagios) writes alot about his experiences with Undines and Venus spirits, amongst others. I believe he has even written a book about Undines that you can find on lulu.com.

I thought I mentioned already that I let go of the outcome? Of course, in my many years of spiritual practice there certainly have been 'ups and downs' but this doesn't make any difference to what I'm saying. I do seek and never would let go of seeking. Magicians must act in the physical world so they must seek things. So to me the real point is not to be deterred by thoughts of outcome and constantly judging the situation. You learn to let go of that because just letting go of success is what brings success. And that's true of success and failure. If I fail I continue with equal commitment, and if I succeed likewise. It couldn't really be different. The situation I'm in is the situation I'm in. If you are talking about false expectations there, this is different subject for me. When I jog the outcome I want is not 'happiness', it is 'fitness', which I definitely am seeking because I prefer it to 'unfitness'. So to me, yes, I will be happier being fitter. To be well is definitely better than to be unwell, even though in the end one must continue either way. (This is the concept of the 'preferred indifferent'.) But of course I try not to seek something where it can't be found. To me it is a big part of wisdom to choose to do something for the right reasons and to learn what does what in your life. Of course to me it is not really about 'fun' exactly either. It's alot deeper than that, but I'm sure you would agree. I definitely believe in being totally focussed and absorbed in what one is doing, but not because it's fun exactly -- just, because it's what you're doing! How about this: the way I look at things is the way a cheetah looks at things. If the cheetah hunts but fails to kill, you don't see her say: "What a bummer. Life sucks. I wish I was anything except a cheetah. How come this happens so much?" No, she walks off calmly and later tries again. The consequences of failure would be severe, especially if she has children, but this doesn't enter her mind, and she doesn't become anxious about it, lose sleep and so on. (Glenn Morris would say, 'she knows how to use her adrenals.') When she hunts, it is not 'because it is fun'! It is not to do with seriousness and not do with fun, it is to do with life and her intention to live in the cheetah way. Her intention is to hunt, kill and feed, but whether she succeeds or not, she remains herself and in the flow of the way things are. Without the intention she could not hunt and could not live, could not be herself. So she has intention and she does seek something. But if she fails, she doesn't become depressed. She continues, because there is nothing to gain by leaving the present moment to bitch and whine about the past. She accepts the situation as just what it is. And what about when she succeeds? After the meal, it is the same as before. Continue. Of course! This is the same with me and meditation. I think in the end we are talking about the same thing -- full commitment in a way -- but the idea of 'not seeking' is definitely foreign to me. ~NeutralWire~

I get what she's saying, but I think it's just too far away from where I come from. I did and do indeed sit down to meditate with the expectation of becoming a better person, and I seem to succeed. Personally, I certainly expect to improve in some way from jogging or something like that -- 'better person' is a little vague, but 'fitter person' would fit the bill. As for the idea that: ... I'm afraid I simply disagree with it! To me, the ability to work well with the people around me is an important virtue. The inability to get on with anyone at all usually seems to me to be an important tip-off about things inside myself that need work. And when I do the work successfully, I am indeed happier. Well this has been interesting! I am sure that both ways are valid, and personally I am much happier in a world with many different methods. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Hi everyone, This was really inspired by some answers (given by Karen and Mat Black, amongst others) in an earlier thread about how people behave/ought to behave on the forum. It was mentioned that even behaviour which is difficult to deal with can be used for self-knowledge purposes. This made me wonder: how many people actually consider self-knowledge a deliberate cornerstone of their practices? Correct me if I'm wrong, but one really can't take for granted that 'Taoists' are pursuing self-knowledge in any particular way, or even at all. I have heard that Taoist monks at Wudang are required to work on themselves in that way, but I think you could run from one end of the Mantak Chia practices to the other without really encountering the concept. Personally, when I began a long time ago I wasn't thinking about self-knowledge too much, but having taken up with the Bardon practices, I am now deep into it. Bardon's point of view on this is very emphatic: ... a remark some might find a little inflammatory in a way, although I don't quote it for that reason. For me, putting greater self-knowledge to work has resulted in a mind that is stronger and less distracted. I came to realize that subconscious, undealt-with issues are rife in me, and it has been revelatory to find that many things I thought were 'just the way I am' are really the results of decisions I'm making, which I can make differently once I see them in action. To me this turned out to be the very essence of personal development as I try and move towards some personal kind of wisdom. It also has been a very creative exercise, in fact I look on it as a kind of art, shaping myself. I do recall Max (Lama Dorje) having said that the Kunlun energies eventually clue you in to parts of yourself you need to change, and it's then up to you what you do with that insight. Has anyone reached that stage of being pushed towards greater self-knowledge, and what was the result if you can share it? And does anyone find this familiar? - I used to find that when blocks cleared in my energy system it would always be accompanied by emotional difficulty, because I was not aware of the actual emotional pattern consciously. I also used to experience the clearing of a block which would then return because I didn't have the psychological insight into how I was forming that block. Have others experienced this? I'd be interested in Karen's point of view because I have heard that Heilkunst is very strong on this issue of finding underlying patterns and making them conscious. But then, I'd love to hear about anyone at all who had an interesting method or experience. Thanks for your time! All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Thanks for the responses... not sure the question really captured people's imagination, it was probably how I phrased it. Thankyou very much, I will and already am! Good question. In my practice it all seems very clear, you have meditation which is about mastering the mind, and you have self-knowledge which is to do with mastering the character. Essentially your job is to move continuously towards the best person you can imagine being in as balanced a manner as possible. And you begin by saying, how do I in fact behave? To me it has always seemed like a chess game, or a solitaire game of cards, the first thing you have to do is turn over the cards and see, what is the position? What do I have to work with? To me that's is the beginning of self-knowledge. You definitely can meditate on your behaviour or whatever and gain insight, and I do that alot, but it's different from other forms of meditation, a special subset. Obviously other practices don't work this way. I was very interested when Cat wrote: .. because although I practiced Mantak a little I certainly didn't get to the stage where I felt I really had a handle on myself and could have a definite effect on my behaviour, knew who I was etc. etc. Maybe that would have come later... I didn't connect with the practice in the end so for me it was academic. Can you give an example of self-knowledge the way you think about it? ~NeutralWire~

Well if you only say it might lead to suffering... no argument. But you must understand -- just about every magical operation is about intention... the intention to heal someone, the intention leave your body, the intention to sit still.... Every action has an intention in magic. The point is to let go of concern about the outcome. The training and the meditation is designed to make you flow into the situation and direct it via your higher will, not the little will that worries if the bus will come on time. This is how it works in what I do. Well of course I hear a lot of people talking like this but Buddhism is a bit of a closed book to me. Normally I don't think about 'suffering' exactly -- but in terms of meditation, either frustration at not achieving something, or failure to achieve something can be a problem, or both. Letting go of outcomes seems the easy way out of that one, I think in terms of 'allowing', 'flowing' and so on. Like I said, 'focused indifference' or 'positive non-desiring'. Maybe that's 'non-attachment'? Only, I still do have intention. Bardon is very big on setting goals, something I do all the time. Hopefully I'm not 'the same old idiot' and Bardon certainly doesn't appear to have been the 'same old idiot'! But I 'let go' of the goals even while I set them. I know worrying about achieving something, thinking about it, etc., is the best way for it never to happen. As a magician I think you develop ways simply to allow things and then they happen, to me it's about getting out of the way. Perhaps our different vocabularies are necessitated by our different practices. ~NeutralWire~

On the Hermetic path (Bardon) this is definitely not the case. The first thing you learn is to have intention without expectation. Amongst the magicians I've heard this called: 'positive non-desiring', 'focused indifference', 'passivity' or 'neutrality' -- all of these turn out to be compatible with intention. Of course these are not Buddhist concepts, at least not officially, but what many of the Tibetans are capable of requires strong intent. You have to get used to this on the Bardon path because the first exercise is to watch thoughts whilst the third is to empty your mind. You have to sit with the intention to do just that exercise, but you need no expectation, only intention. The suffering would come in when you failed to achieve it, if you took that too seriously and didn't 'let go of the result'. If I sit to watch my breath my intention is to watch my breath, if I sit to do zazen I must be very clear that I'm doing zazen and not something else. So for me the suffering you are talking about comes from judgements about results, not from intention. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Not all of us mate, not all of us... what I think is so funny is that Stephen Chang was advocating learning the 12 ordinaries before anyone had ever heard of Mantak. That's where I got the idea I think.

For me one of my problems is that I don't want to share the details of my life, it's private! But for the last 2 weeks every time I drink water (which I often do) I think of vitalizing and refreshing a certain relationship of mine that ran into difficulties. The results have been pretty amazing, opening up all sorts of things in my past that I had forgotten, and which I was subconsciously putting into the present via this relationship. Also starting to dissolve a very nasty blockage in the left ear which I had no idea was there. Simultaneously, the person concerned also began getting an ear thing. This sort of thing, I combine with visualizing and inner storytelling (storymaking I should say maybe). I will place images at a spot revealed in the energy body as significant (ear in this case) and I will imagine the water adding energy of flow and movement to that image. Then I have to surf skillfully as things change. It often seems I 'do' very little, allowing it to happen. Everything is related together with prayer too. In this case I used no special water (although I magnetize the drinking water in our house) and did not imagine any specific energy. I just allowed my unconscious to do the work. I hope that says a little more about what you can do with food and drink. It's about making the ordinary into something spiritual and beautiful, for me. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

See, that right there is the reason I posted a topic about self-knowledge. I personally (must stress that -- personally) always found it considerably harder to begin with a blocked bodily/energetic process and somehow understand the life pattern it represents. Whereas when I started by looking at life patterns, I found that processes would unblock of themselves, meaning far less painfully. Myself, I wouldn't continue to grit my teeth through pain like that. I would sit in stillness and allow a reply from below the diaphragm, and see if I could gain some insight. From this: .. it sounds a little similar to something I have had involving the upper part of the sternum. If so look for issues of speaking your mind, being true to yourself, and thinking life is worthwhile. That may seem vague, if so I apologize! All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Oh no problem! Not sure how much of that stuff is useful for people here. Two that might interest are 'Magic Simplified', which is a training book (kind of like a mini-Bardon) and 'Spiritual Cleansing' which is techniques using incense, baths, herbal sprays (you make them yourself)... all sorts of other stuff too, for cleansing your self and your living area. He gets most of those techniques from Hoodoo and Santeria practices, things like that. His book on magnets has got some interesting contraptions in it too, including one I'm planning to build sometime this year. If you liked the Bardon food-blessing practice you'll like that one, it expands on those ideas by using symbolism. Eg. - what're you drinking? Fruit juice? Sweetening your life. What do you want to sweeten? Have the intention to sweeten it as you drink. These days I use this whilst cleaning the floor (strengthening the foundation of something), walking to the store (moving myself towards where I want to be) etc. This really is a practice-all-day thing. The more boring your task the more it can be transformed into something spiritual by doing this, that's why I like it. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

This is from Draja Mickaharic, an eclectic sorcerer in Western traditions. I believe it is in one of his books, 'Century of Spells'. Draja is retired currently and lives in Philadelphia but he still does correspond with people. He's in his nineties but very sprightly. He has retired from practice but for fifty years he served the ethnic people of New York as a healer and magician, etc. His Wikipedia page shows his bibliography -- it's mostly not 'cultivation' as many here would do it, but I can tell you, this man can focus like a Zen master and astral project with the best of them. He has alot of skill. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

This is an interesting question. One of the first things Bardon teaches is to bless a meal and eat consciously, using it as a symbol for fortifying yourself with a virtue. In other words his idea is to use it for transformation. A book recently came out called 'Self-Hypnosis Revolution' by a man named Forbes Robbins Blair -- who is also a practitioner. This expands the idea to include eating, drinking, walking, and any of about a hundred other daily activities. These can act as symbols for seeding your subconscious with self change. I mention that book because it really got results for me in terms of self-change, quick results. I've used it constantly over the last couple of months and I will probably do so for the rest of my life. The principle comes from the author's experience in dream interpretation. If taking a shower in a dream can represent cleansing negativity, then taking a physical shower can represent the same thing in a conscious manner. This is what Bardonists use meals for -- it's a kind of 'prayer' to fortify oneself. I was very surprised how well this worked as I'd played in that area for ages. This skyrocketted the results. http://www.amazon.com/Self-Hypnosis-Revolu...4008&sr=1-1 (Not a normal 'self-hypnosis' book since no trance is involved BTW). All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Very true although that's a rather different practice. The famous renaissance western book of alchemy, Mutus Liber ("Silent Book"), shows a process that begins with collecting dew. A man named Armand Barbault is supposed actually to have recorded results with a similar method in a book called 'Gold of a Thousand Mornings', based on experiments he did in the seventies. I've never obtained the book to see what he actually experienced, it would be interesting though. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

I would like to share a similar technique I was taught, it is western. It is used for healing. The New Moon, not full, is used. This is the time of perfect Moon joining with Sun. Expose a jar of water to the Sun between sunrise and noon the day following New Moon. Seal jar. Store in a dark place. You can do this every new moon, collecting different waters. The Moon will be in the same Zodiac Sign as the Sun -- label the container with the appropriate sign. To use: add a few drops to regular water and charge with intention of healing. To pick which water to use, you want a suitable sign. You can go by personal characteristics, or by the person's chart. For purely physical healing, the signs rule the body heady to toe (Aries is head, Pisces feet). Choose the correct sign for the part of the body. Healing is reliable but slow -- complementary. However it is effective. It needs to be done 4-5x/day if that's all you're using. For a student, it's good discipline to prepare waters for all the signs. It teaches about changes in energy in the seasons. There's more -- the colour of the glass jar can be used to filter the energy for various purposes. You can also use a little of the water in tea to help add energy to a healing brew. But that's basically it. Enjoy! ~NeutralWire~

London blanketted w/ snow this morning Warmed up quick enough with practice, then suddenly remembered something: Andy Goldsworthy - his book, 'Time' (If you don't know: he's a land artist who works in nature using only locally found materials) Working in freezing Nova Scotia on something like this: ... he says: [my emphasis] He's such a Taoist artist as well Wants to see his work change, comes back and photographs it when the elements have altered it. Some amazing stuff in that book, one of my faves: There's a great movie about him too, excerpts on YouTube. ~NeutralWire~

White Tiger: I'll vouch for that. I'm Jewish and my wife is Chinese. Jewish mothers and Asian mothers... too much in common. In Montreal, where there are large populations of both, they have a term for the propensity of Chinese/Jewish couples: Soy Vey. Rain: cough coughcoughBardoncough cough ~NeutralWire~

I've always found this bizarre. What's wrong with saying you got something from Glenn? Nobody doesn't love Glenn. I remember when he and Glenn were working together, Jeff was linked with all the Glenn sites then Glenn suddenly said, he and I have split the blanket. No further explanation, and the links went away. I seem to remember that Glenn also found the Siberian thing a little hard to swallow. But I never studied with Jeff so I know nothing about him. If I'm honest, I think the disagreement between Glenn and him might have been more a personality thing than anything else. Jeff seems (or seemed at the time) very much a Mr Clean, whereas Glenn was so informal and never trusted lighty-light kinds of people. It's cool that he's still around though. ~NeutralWire~

... and Hermetic/Western too, by a completely different method. ... from "Immortality" by Mickaharic. Not a practice book I hasten to add, merely a collection of stories and rumours he has picked up in 45 years of sorcery in New York city, concerning methods of Immortality. Bardon's "Initiation" is the only published route into this work. The so-called Philosopher's Stone was perfectly real as far as Bardon was concerned -- according to his student Doctor M.K., the recipe for making it was kept under lock and key in his study. ~NeutralWire~

What is happening not only had to happen but is going to make things easier for everyone long term We are transitioning down from Hubbert's Peak and rolling gently to the end of Western Civilization over the next 100-200 years It's all to do with oil Positive thinking is not the answer Although negative thinking is a problem! http://www.transitiontowns.org/ http://www.thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com New times new rules ~NeutralWire~

I do different kinds of this. I watch thoughts and also cleave to breath. I also do trancework but that is different, since there is more of a goal. I work on a couch or if a want to do a straight spine I do it in Egyptian Position (Bardon) which is energetically very interesting. All every day, no exceptions. I'm no Buddhist, but I got into a book about Zen and Creativity by Loori, at least the first part. I thought I'd quote a bit. It's not the whole answer but perhaps more of the answer than one might think...

I've had OBEs but no NDEs. NeutralWire

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ForestofSouls - If Bardon's work is no good for you then don't give it another thought. I was exactly that way once myself actually. For me, still sitting worked great as an intro, and is then followed by various practices of which Bardon became King whilst other approaches disappeared. This is the Glenn Morris way. This is normal. I have worked on techniques since having the same problem at the start, maybe one day anyone who has these issues I can resolve it, but not yet. The most important thing is determination of course, but you are quite correct -- Rawn's way is just Rawn's way. (Still he began with some years of zazen also, did you know that?) I also understand needing something more immediate. But I must correct you: it is possible to directly compare these systems, because Bardon himself did so. He understood them, remembering former Buddhist lives (and abilities) in perfect detail and seeing the Western equivalents. The elemental balance is not the same as morality and acquiring merit! It is more because it is about balance and centredness -- what Chia's 'fusion' is supposed to produce (but doesn't, so far as I know). But if Bardon doesn't work for you, then forget it! I'm somebody who looks at the cover of 'Key to the True Kabbalah' and gets a feeling like yes, yes, yes... I do shaking trances and still sitting and all kinds of weird stuff as well, but Bardon is King, he answered all my questions. All best wishes, NeutralWire

Hi, My name is NeutralWire and I'm from London, UK. My favourite things are Bardon, zhanzhuang, trancework of various kinds, and prayer. I really joined to point something out in a conversation I lurked on -- having stopped in, I guess I will stick around and hopefully contribute something. NeutralWire