NeutralWire

Ah! Merlin! I'm planning to do a bit more research on that whole thing; I know two people who are quite up on the arthurian legends, and I want to read the '4 ancient books of wales'. A recent pm conversation with Tumoessence reminded me that some say Merlin was born at Carmarthen in Wales, and may still be imprisoned there according to legend... (He did not build Stonehenge!) NW

I'm in full agreement with this philosophy but I would like to ask a question: the 'underlying cause', how do you express what this is in Heilkunst? Presumably, since you agree that the purpose of disease is to learn something, the cure is always that the learning has taken place in some way? This would be my basic approach. In the self-knowledge paradigm one gets closer and closer to the root 'decision to be ill' which results in wellness on a deep level first -- that's what you're calling 'cure'. But how do you see the self-knowledge aspect of it in Heilkunst? NW

apepch7 Don't mind me, I like to blather on about these things! Yes, Zeno of Citium that is, there were several Zenos. He founded 'Stoicism', named after the 'Stoa Poikile', or 'painted porch' under which he used to lecture in the square at Athens. He was later than Socrates and Plato, in the Hellenistic period, born just after Plato died. Socrates in particular was a giant influence on Stoicism. It became one of the most important classical philosophies and influenced Hermetics. It began with Zeno, Cleanthes and Chrysippus (the so-called 'Old Stoa'), and progressed through several Greek generations. It became extremely influential at Rome too, thanks to the famous ex-slave sage Epictetus. The last famous Stoic was the Emperor Marcus Aurelius (appears in the film 'Gladiator' ) The Stoics recognized the cosmos as filled with an energy called pneuma that appeared in various densities and types of organization. Their ethical approach involved understanding of fate and examining the causes of destructive emotions, which they mapped out as motions of pneuma. Their ideal was the sophos or sage, who had achieved a 'harmonious flow of life, according to Nature.' I can give more detail elsewhere -- they were very ahead of their time in many ways. When things moved back toward Platonic mysticism, they lost ground, but actually, their work was very much resonant with that system also. Whoah! That's alot... who is he? Where do I begin? Yes although that is certainly changing right now. People are begin forced to recognize a few things! NW

apepch7 -- Absolutely, the higher self has access to all the causes of all your many lives. When you are fully in contact with it, you also start to have that access. But otherwise, you can't always see the causes or the reasons, certainly not consciously. Yeah I like that. The way I have always put it to myself is, your 'higher self' co-operates freely with all events in your life and sees the necessity of fate without reservation. Therefore if you co-operate with life and see the necessity of fate, you will come into contact with your higher self. (The daimon is constantly in contact with Moira, so if you flow with Moira, you will come into contact with the daimon. Daimon, Higher Self, Tiphareth and karen's 'ontic' seem to me to be the same.) To me that attitude towards events is very Taoist and also very Stoic, which is why the Stoics are called the 'western Taoists' by some people -- well, one of the reasons. But yes, steadfastly affirming the good brings you in contact with the deeper truth. Truth, goodness and virtue are all the same thing, so they said in Stoicism, and I agree. NW

karen -- Thanks for the link to the older thread. I remembered as soon as I opened it why I didn't read it -- it all just looks like ^^* %^&$^%* ydhgf987699636^%( to me! This is a subject I know absolutely zero about. Somehow it's fallen out of my education. My worldview does not encompass it. I do know about Reich's orgone generators that work by layers, but I've never heard of any of this other stuff. NW

Mak_Tin_Si -- Almost exactly the words of Franz Bardon: A true magician accepts life the way it is presented to him; he enjoys the good and he learns from the evil and he is never despondent... Therefore it would be fundamentally wrong to indulge in the past and regret every unpleasantness that fate has placed in your path. Only weaklings constantly complain and expect pity. ... mind you, that's an advanced thing for someone to comprehend completely, especially if they are used to thinking about it another way. I believe only those who are philosophically advanced are really ready to absorb this idea, or see it in action. apepch7 -- I totally agree (and said) that one should be careful who one says things like this to, but what you say here is not the point I was making personally. I didn't say it is a question of 'fault' -- the perception of fault is the problem, the solution (as I was trying to make clear) is to see that there is nothing wrong and hence no 'fault'. So it is not a question of blaming someone for their troubles. And even saying 'they themselves are the cause' is not quite what I meant. What I mean is that underneath all these events is a necessity which is truly Right and with which the higher spiritual self, that I call the daimon is fully co-operating (as Ya Mu said very well). But for many people that is not 'they themselves' but something wholly other from themselves. For a spiritual seeker though it is different IMO. Ya Mu -- Your point of view also agrees completely with mine. I also agree that direct seeing is necessary, but unlike you perhaps, I am not sure that everyone should try to see this way. I think it is something that comes when people are ready. On this site it is a fair thing to say it, but society in general is not completely enlightened and can't be asked to be so. Or do you think different? Not even semantics, just a question of different names for the same thing. As I say I call it Moira which is the Greek word for fate, but also, handily, the name of the Greek Goddess of fate. NW

mat black -- I realize you didn't want to explain more, but I wondered if I could persuade you? The material you linked to is quite intense, and not all of us can quickly get up to speed, plus a forum like this allows us to communicate personal experience (if desired/possible). Could you give a quick rundown on what these devices are and what they have done for you? This is one area where I'm clueless, I've been told about it before but have done no investigating. Hopefully thanking you, ~NeutralWire~

I agree with Mak_Tin_Si here for certain. A time of grief for a parent would certainly not be the moment to tell them (!), but all things happen as they should in my opinion. This is the concept of fate that is held not just in Taoism but in many other streams of human wisdom also. There are no mistakes in what happens to us. I would go far further than Mak_Tin_Si actually -- he says that it it 'can be a good thing', but I say that all such events are things we deliberately subject ourselves to, in order to learn specific things. Therefore in that sense they are all good things. There is no difference between the necessary and the good, if looking at things from the divine point of view, which is the best one for a spiritual cultivator. I know that karen has said this about illness -- it is a blessing and an opportunity, and we choose it (at a level upon which we are not at that moment conscious), because we need it. I'd say it applies to affliction of other kinds too. I would love to know whether Mak_Tin_Si would agree that we deliberately choose as human beings to undergo things in order to learn. The circumstances of our lives are laid down by fate, what I call Moira, but this fate is planned with our full nonphysical co-operation. As Mak_Tin_Si implies, ("find the source and you will know why"), when we are in touch with the parts of ourselves that do flow with fate and with these events, we will see their wisdom. It is not a truth that everyone is always ready to hear, but someone in spiritual training should IMO be ready to face the idea that their entire life circumstance is wholly just, and self-chosen in a spiritual sense. This of course gives you both responsibility and also freedom. I know this doctrine splits the 'bums though. I remember Trunk for example saying that he certainly did not believe it. Rawn Clark's comments about what Bardon calls 'Divine Providence' are relevant: It is common for us to wonder how the unpleasant aspects and events of life can exist in a universe permeated by a Benevolent deity... from the eternal perspective of the Unity, benevolence is an undercurrent in All events, even the most unpleasant ones. Suffering exists for a reason. It teaches us lessons that we have not been able to otherwise learn through more pleasant means. So at the core of each unpleasant situation lies the divine benevolence that knows this is the way in which we must learn -- it is the root lesson that holds the benevolence, the manifestation of events is itself secondary. The only way sometimes, to perceive the divine benevolence behind unsavory events is to broaden one's perspective to include lifetimes instead of single moments. This is 'the real world', for all human beings, both in the city with the millions and alone on the mountain. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

forestofsouls -- I certainly relate to the idea of a search for virtue, as a Stoic I believe it is the same as Good in human terms. This has quite a Buddhist ring in some senses. But my real point is that I draw (as we all can) from a very wide range of sources, both of others and from my own range of experience. 'Cessation of suffering' simply fails to convey, for me, what life is about; I don't feel it really conveys the value of the experiences I have, spiritual or otherwise. For those it works for, good, but not for me. I think Mal: ... points up something important too. NW

cat -- I agree. The 'cessation of suffering' angle is one I never shared. I really started my practice to find new and interesting things, and I did! I also think that I and the people I admire really have helped others by their practice as well as themselves. I find 'cessation of suffering' a very limited paradigm, not one I relate to at all. NW

--

Thanks, glad it is useful! NW

No problem at all. Put it in your cooking pot and see what brews up. NW

lol. Explains the attitude a little. All those on a mission from the gods: form an orderly queue.

Did not know that! The plot thickens!

Yeah... and sometimes it's there of course! But it's 'always the person' isn't it, it's not really the tradition in the end. NW

apepch7 -- I know what you mean, but ithe behaviour of MTS is not that different from most other 'priests' with whom I have had contact; if a bit louder. In such an eclectic place as this, giving one single practice the position of 'orthodox and therefore correct' won't make happiness at all. Sharing a trad religious taoism's ins and outs could be highly interesting, for those of us without connections to it, if it went both ways as all things here ought to. But if it is presented as 'the way we all should know and follow', and will not listen back, it may find itself in the pot reserved by all sensible tribes for hapless missionaries. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ Relevant phrases highlighted: Welcome to The Tao Bums discussion forum. This is an informal community created to discuss Tao (Dao), particularly as is expressed in key philosophical texts such as the well known Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu, health and cultivation practices such as Tai Chi and Qigong (Chi Kung), nonconceptual meditation approaches such as Zuowang (sitting and forgetting), and also the historical developments of Taoism as the bona fide Chinese religion of Taoist priests and shamans. Don't let this intro scare you though. Most of us are syncretic at heart. Discussion is encouraged to wander eclectically across a wide range of spiritual thought and practice, whether Buddhist, Yogic, Tantric, Judaic, Advaitic, Christian, Islamic, Shamanic, Occult, "New Age", Integral... As long as you are up for a good time, you're welcome to discuss your path. Though we can get rowdy at times, we all do our best to keep it civil. We are, almost as a rule, rather strange, but we have good hearts and even better senses of humor.

From the home page here at ttb:

... unless you have trained by leaving your body many times, and know already where you are destined to go in the earthzone, as students of Glenn Morris or Franz Bardon both have the chance to do. For eyewitness accounts of the earthzone, I recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Projections-Consciou...9856&sr=1-1 .... but those wishing to manifest their divinity might prefer to discover these places personally; mystics in all areas and at all times have always done so. NW

Granted. You cultivate unsuccessfully for 100 days, because your method requires celibacy. I wish there was beautiful, lovely sunny deserted beach in the middle of London, that no-one knew about except for me, my friends, and the tao bums.

Wish granted, you now have all the money you need for everything you want to do. However the world economic system has just crashed and everyone is only using barter. So the money's worthless. (Is this too near the truth to be funny?) I wish everybody was able to see fully into everyone else's soul.

Wish granted, now no-one ever posts at all. Also, off-list they are all fighting with their family and friends. Great job Mal, thanks a bunch. I wish all my work would just suddenly be finished, perfectly.

I think the reason there aren't a million answers right away is because no-one here is experienced with this type of situation. The only thing I can think of is that it might depend what method you use. Do you mind giving more details of the procedure? What was done and why? Even if you can't reach your 'full potential', there is always bound to be a way you can progress. NW

Oops, so you got all that before I deleted it then? Well it depends who you talk to mate. Start with Nan Huai Chin. NW

--