NeutralWire

seadog lololol ... those're classic trauma-based OBE's. Hardyg -- Frequency. Mental body is close to shen/spirit and does not really feel sensory input with the gut-viscerality that the astral body does (daydreaming). Astral sensations are more or less physical-like. The astral body is the energy body. In all locations of equivalent density yes. Non-physical locales have time moving at different speeds and sometimes in different ways. All the stories about people being away wiv the fairies for a day and returning to find a hundred years have passed are relevant! NW

Ah, well if I misunderstood your intentions forgive me -- but I still suspect the first set of questions was way different from this goal. I also still insist that my answers to those questions contained something interesting if you were prepared to look at it! You were speaking about miracles and I offered a redefinition of the word as you saw it, questioning your own definition by an enthymeme... but you're no longer interested in what you were calling 'miracles', fine! And you also talked about 'proof'... remember? But now, we are no longer speaking about that either? (And thankyou freeform for seeing my earnestness! ) I agree of course with mat black: ... as far as 'miraculous' things are concerned. Your question now though is simply, what is the process of coming to believe something is real? Since we are no longer talking about miracles, I can answer more thoroughly. There has been a recent thread for example on out-of-body experiences. (These do indeed go against the textbooks of biology and physics, but I don't think they would have counted as 'miracles' for the purposes of the other conversation.) In the case of OBEs, I thought at first, this sounds weird, but something else was touched off deep inside me that made me want to pursue it. I didn't know what that something was. When I read OBE authors I was impressed enough with their coherence not to be put off the idea, but like William Buhlman I didn't believe it until one night I was looking down at my body from the ceiling; unmistakably, at that point I believed it. That's what I mean by experience. It's also why I won't talk about 'proof'; it's always possible for someone to ask endlessly, 'but how did you know?' etc. which becomes tiresome. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

goldisheavy -- On the contrary, it's completely clear. I experienced something which made me change my mind. For the record that means exactly that it's not something I read in a book. When you asked your questions you didn't say you wanted concrete examples. I'm not going to give any concrete examples. In my post I stated that I wouldn't attempt to prove my point, and I won't. The answers I gave to your questions aren't 'cheap', nor superficial -- just short and lacking detail. My experiences likewise are not cheap. I deliberately put hooks in my answers for further questions though, if someone were in the mood. My first four answers alone, even though they are one-word answers, contain quite a bit of philosophy -- if those who are reading really do like to think carefully that is. NW

Is it possible to see spiritual energy? Yes. Is it possible to emit light? Yes. Can people fly unaided? Yes. Are there what people call "miracles"? No. Can people experience amazing healing that doesn't fall within the realm of known science? 'Known' to whom? Is there any magic to life, or does life experience operate strictly "by the physics/chemistry/biology" book? Whose book? If you answer any of these questions, how would you attempt to prove your point? I wouldn't. And let me ask further. Has anything ever been proven to you that you didn't believe in prior to the proof? Plenty! What did it take to change your mind? Experience. Are glowing hands good for anything though? It depends whose and why they are glowing. maybe we should also remember that all things whether detected by sensory or extra sensory perception is still phenomena nonetheless, and hence subject to arising and passing. True but entirely irrelevant to the question. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

seth ananda -- Just to say, if you are interested in knowing more about that effect, it is discussed at great length by Robert Bruce, especially in his book 'Astral Dynamics'. He calls it the 'mind split effect'. NW

Which bit? NW

Yes. Personally I don't speak about my experience. The first book on my recommended list of seven here: http://www.thetaobums.com/Seven-Books-You-...Know-t9107.html is a good one on the question of 'interesting things about it'. Sometimes I am told they do occur spontaneously in meditation. I don't know which techniques. There are definitely different degrees of them, but not in the way you are meaning here IME. Clarity depends on level of development in the person and development of their astral sensoria. There are different degrees in terms of the amount and type of self that separates, there are different degrees in terms of the truthfulness or otherwise of what is seen, and there are different degrees of things to see. For the question of senses, see above. All senses may be present to differing degrees of similarity to the waking physical senses, depending on whether you have separated the mental or the astral bodies. The perception of time depends on the location projected to. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Truly I'm not ambivalent about it; I don't see why you are unless because you find the tension useful. This I really think is possible! When 'it' occurs it doesn't feel like a sucker-punch to me. Often a moment of 'enlightenment' has the connotation of, how stupid I am, I only act out of my own way, it is here all along, etc. But these are gifts! If I feel stupid, I laugh, and continue, if I feel tragic, I cry and continue... but I have achieved something, even if 'achievement' seems normally to mean something different. I agree with Vortex and he is saying in another way what I said about the NLP thing -- unconscious competence. You must know the formula? It is a question of laying down the habit of doing something correctly so that after a while 'it' does it correctly. Then all is simple... but there has been a change, you are closer in line with the immortal one. And so it continues. Sometimes we forget how far we have come. What I don't get is why you use the word 'futile'. I think that's your judgement! You aim to do something, eventually you do it. But that moment of doing it makes you see that there was in a way nothing to do. Still you did do it! So there is nothing futile there for me. You strive at the right time and you let go at the right time, and if not you are prompted. This is the process! But they are the same person. You don't see in an instant without immense prior effort, and the effort doesn't pay off if you don't see in an instant. Only very superficially. Human beings must learn, that is what they are here for! The sufis say, you can't find it by seeking it, but only seekers find it. There isn't any choice! Which is why you said: Exactly. Only that effort makes a human being, there is no other way! But then you suddenly add: ... which I don't get. I think you don't want to resolve the tension because you find it useful... in which case, no more to speak of! I leave alone the empathy and the ninja, it wasn't working. NW

I find that asking questions tends to open this up... I also will answer quickly as I have to be elsewhere. Could you explain what you mean by 'a-social'? What in this example is a-social? What in general in a human being is social or a-social? In animals nothing! In humans alot of difficulty and need for refinement comes from inability to assimilate an animalistic nature (see below on the sword test).... Things must 'become unconscious again', yes. This is equivalent to that very useful NLP concept of 'unconscious competence'. But why is this a problem? After all, if you succeed in meeting the need to refine, haven't you become unconscious and natural again? We disagree here... to me the nature of empathy is precisely the same in adults and children, what has changed is the greater sense of self (which you are referring to), so that one is able to tell, these are not my feelings, and the ability to interpret the experiences, to understand the story of them. Is this helpful? I think we are getting closer. We are talking about individuation, and what it takes to become an adult, and that spontaneity may be lost, and how to regain it. My original answer, waaaaay back up there was: can you not refine to spontaneity? Can you not by art achieve simplicity? It seems to me that you can. That is why I mentioned that if you succeed in 'building' the person you must be, you also reveal what was there all along and did not need to be built. The ninja sword test is appropriate to think about here. Instinctively and without thought you save yourself -- but only having learned by art to still yourself, which means being able to ride the dragon, the animal nature. If you simply give in to fear, you won't pass. Which is more spontaneous, giving into fear, or the refined human being who passes the test? In the seed of a human being is the child and the adult and the one near death. The immortal one does not change in time. The one who changes in time must either change towards the immortal one, or away from him. Indeed, agree with that and it is precisely what I thought I said at first? What you are saying is equivalent to the zen notion: 'There is always an easy way, therefore strive hard!' But if you already understand this, what's the question you are asking? Because you are saying you already realize that it isn't one or the other, either/or; you are saying you know it is both raw and refined because they imply each other. Aren't you? NW

Why ask for anything? I pray in order to celebrate, mark the turning of the year, and open my heart. NW

Yes and no. Your point of view is very different from mine... I will ask more questions, but if it becomes boring for you, don't answer! I'm rather surprised at this point of view! So you don't believe then, that these are arbitrary attachments derived from a superficial animal way of seeing?... EDIT ah! hold on, you mean the spontaneity itself not the object of the spontaneity. Right? In other words what you are talking about in this whole thread is innocence vs. experience, and truth to one's true nature, and which is truer, right? Again very surprising! So you do not feel that a small child has the ability to feel real empathy? So you do not see this refinement as 'returning to the original'? (and hence letting go) Also surprising! What is about control in your view? All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Hagar your writing is very beautiful. The 'strong sense of self and of boundaries' thing, to me, is an entirely different level from refinement vs. letting go. Can you explain what you feel they have to do with one another? In other words, why would it matter whether you refined or let go, from the point of view of having a strong sense of self and personal boundaries? I am not sure I see the relevance of one to the other. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Trunk -- Interesting. Me, I bought it. What Freeform said -- ... is perfectly true. In fact there's a whole book about exactly how to gain such insights via meditation, quiet walks, or alot of other things, Benson's 'Breakout Principle', quite a good read: http://www.amazon.com/Breakout-Principle-C...2740&sr=1-2 His basic model is that you put alot into your issue, consciously, then let it go whilst doing something else, and it will rejoin you solved. Empty mind is good for this, so is EFT, but knitting works for some! Suffering is a part of life, but reasonless suffering IMO not. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

For sex it may well be a good balance yes! Ultimately I think one can do one's best to look at both sides of such equations... NW

Or just wet your hands and rub salt into your skin, I do that sometimes now. Pay particular attention to the back of neck and sternum areas. Interesting, Mickaharic recommends tying a string or loop around your waist with the intention of sealing your aura, or you can buckle your belt with that intention. Michael Winn says use of the belt channel as a protective measure will be effective so that is confirmation of the same general idea. I might give this a go if I remember, see what happens. NW

Yes this happens - alot if you live in a city, and yes there are such techniques. If you're well grounded and have self-knowledge plus good mental focus you are starting to be completely impregnable, but I always recommend 'Spiritual Cleansing' by Mickaharic which contains a bunch of easy things to cleanse your aura of other people's gunk -- your home's aura as well. Yoda is currently having fun with that book. The techniques are easy -- folk magic, incense and baths mostly, but many neat little tricks. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

lol ok but my list was not exhaustive. BTW Bardon's 'Initiation into Hermetics' contains detailed instructions at the back for flying, becoming invisible and resurrecting the dead. Don't know of anyone who will admit to having achieved them but some interesting stories are told of Bardon himself. He always made it plain that every lineage the world over could lead to such things, but also stressed (as does anyone wise): 'Occult abilities are mere side effects." Checking into the old stories always brings up valuable stuff for me, no matter whose. Everyone has their favourites and personally I really think the Tao Immortals are a very special lineage, but I'm partial to a bunch of others also. Different lineages seem to produce special effects of different kinds... for some reason, in the west, we are particularly partial to those who part waters for example. NW

Quoting myself above: ... and heeeeeeere's Lydia: ... Glenn's passing the sword onto Rob Williams, who's continued his stuff, and who seems to be the modern head of the KAP thing that is based his methods, and which quite a few on this site are studying. For those who want a short story about a 'genie in a bottle', here's Glenn on the subject of this particular weapon: Every time I tried to sharpen it or clean it up, I'd get cut -- once to the bone on my left thumb knuckle. I read a biography of Tesshu (one of the last great samurai swordsmen to achieve enlightenment) and decided to try running energy into the blade as well as meditating with it in my lap. One night as I was meditating the sword became very cold and a woman's voice spoke to me saying, "You keep that ninja to (short straight-bladed sword favored by boat warriors) beside your bed instead of me. How can you be such a fool? Don't you know I deserve better treatment than this?!" I got up, moved the to out of the bedroom, and put her beside my bed. She has been light and easy to handle ever since. I haven't been cut since. [...] The sword sometimes seems to move about me on her own when I do sword drills as a form of compassionate compensation. I don't have the faintest idea how a swordmaker trapped a female spirit in a sword three hundred years ago. The Bardon methods for doing similar things always use fluid condensers. They come from the Egyptian and Greek lineages, and in their day, the Greeks really knew their stuff on such things. They were by no means second fiddle to the Egyptians, but they lost their knowledge sooner for some reason. I must write a little article on Greek sacred statuary! It's incredibly interesting and for the Bardonist quite inspiring. That brings this thread full circle in another way for me BTW, because Glenn was quite a fan of William Blake. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

The similarities are real and they are not only between those two traditions. Check out the stories of Orpheus, Egyptian magicians, Druids, old testament prophets... NW

My sister Nicola told me she takes fermented vitamins! Have no clue what that's about... can ask her for more if anyone is interested, but perhaps someone here already knows about this. NW

This is just a little something for the Glennies around here. It's Ralph Severe, talking about the Bujinkan... some he likes, some he doesn't... but guess which one makes him grin from ear to ear and talk about how 'just awesome' he was? Only a minute's worth of video, embed was disabled... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t7naxIpNQI Very glad to see Glenn's stuff still being taught in the form of KAP, and doing great stuff by the looks of it. BTW, as someone who was a bit out of the loop on it, I'd love to know exactly how KAP came into being and what the connection with Glenn originally was. Just purely for the annals. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

... ah! Well you see I didn't know that. Your reading of the nervous system switch over sounds spot on to me. As I say with this aspect of things I'm instinctive and not too well-read. NW

How dare you both practically force me to buy this book which I hadn't in any way had my eye on for ages: http://www.amazon.com/William-Blake-Comple...3056&sr=1-2

Ian -- Me too have to say. Anyone have any idea why it wouldn't work, if stuck to? NW