NeutralWire

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If you're referring to the Damanhurians, they are not saying all religions are 'similar' but that they can all be seen as part of one larger pattern, just as not all countries are similar but they can all be seen on a map together. NW

If you mean do I wear only a loincloth and am I typing this whilst sitting on a bed of nails, no. But yes I live a reasonably simple life in terms of diet, I watch what I take in, I have gradually got rid of physical bad habits, etc. For me 'willpower' does play a role in any kind of self-change. Alot of the reason people in Hermetics will work on their habits is to strengthen their will, which helps one's life in many ways. If you want to change, start working out what's going wrong with the method you have at the moment and keep experimenting. Never blame yourself. Years ago I gave up smoking and I found Allen Carr's 'EasyWay' really amazingly helpful... I abstracted what he did there to a more generalized system. I've also used self-hypnosis alot (try searching for Forbes Robbins Blair on Amazon), affirmations, EFT, EMDR, Stoic philosophy, NLP... the key is to be absolutely definite what you are trying to do, not give up until you succeed, and not try for too much at once. Let the change settle into a full unconscious habit before you work on the next thing. Find out how you work. Bardon outlined three forms of asceticism -- mental, astral and physical. Basically this means having a} an eye on one's own thoughts, b} an ennoblement of the character, and c} decent regular physical lifestyle. In other words this is asceticism as self-discipline, not self-flagellation. That's the way I think of it. The word 'ascetic' comes from the Greek askesis meaning essentially 'training'. If you are working on seminal retention or going to raw food or even just waking up an hour earlier, as another post said, that's all the asceticism you need, and it's done for a good reason rather than just for the sake of it. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

aha! lol NW

xuesheng -- Amen. But your attitude seems far more sensible, real and human than that of the document. I probably would die if necessary (for good reason), at least I hope so, and would avoid killing like the plague. The document didn't mention killing or death though -- it mentioned 'violence', including 'psychological, economical and social' violence (Which I'd love it if someone else could define). That's quite a broad remit and we're only at paragraph two. (I'm pretty sure 'economical' violence is meant to say 'economic'... unless they really meant violence on a shoestring budget lol ) You've observed change in yourself but it seems to me this document was written by someone without any real understanding of what it takes for human beings to change. It's rather cosmetic. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

... hmm. I have very little use for my TV just now so I was hoping for the DVD. Got a 5-page amazon wish list to get through before I can entertain Mr Jones in book form. He is, as Glenn Morris would have said, 'about as esoteric as a duck.' NW (Nothing against ducks)

You started this.

While I've got you here, can I ask you what your avatar is? NW

*sigh* they used to be... I admit it: I'm out of my depth. I suggest: East - Rachel Brice South - Sharon Kihara West - Zoe Jakes North - Kami Liddle ... this makes me happy. NW

George surely has to be East, no?.... John for West at first sight seems right, but on the others I will defer to my learned colleagues. If we keep having conversations of this kind I'm going to have to grow a beard to stroke gravely. ~NeutralWire~

Interestingly, last night on British TV was the final episode of a series called 'Around the World in 80 Faiths', and the last 'faith' featured was that of Damanhur -- an Italian commune based on pagan beliefs whose progress I've been checking out for some time. In the seventies a small group of western practitioners began digging into a mountainside and eventually built these stunning temples: http://www.thetemples.org (if you've never seen this before, you won't believe your eyes) ... I won't go into their quarrels with the Italian government because those are behind them now, and they are doing well -- they have regenerated the economy of their area of Italy by all accounts. I bring them up because: They have an area of their temple with stained glass windows depicting the faiths of the world. It is dedicated to the idea of harmonizing all religion into one family of human belief. There was a lovely TV moment as the (christian) presenter wandered through this area, looking at the stained glass windows, which each represent a deity (from Aphrodite to Unkul Unkulu) now or at some time worshipped by humanity. As he reached the window portraying Jesus Christ he paused and was thoughtful. He remarked that it was very interesting to see his faith as one amongst many. To his guide (Esperide Ananas) he said: "You represent all the faiths of the world here, but in reality, their history hasn't exactly been peaceful." She replied, "That's the point. To work towards that peace." The presenter said that of all the 80 faiths, this was the only one whose message was that all faiths can learn to co-exist peacefully as part of one great human family. But the Damanhurians themselves don't call what they have a 'faith', they simply say they have a 'spirituality' -- which is what I say also. Does this take the number of faiths in the world which explicitly believe and teach harmony of religions to precisely zero? My personal philosophy allows me to agree with the Damanhurians, but only because I also follow no faith. With regret, then, I must say that I believe most human religion to be at least partly damaging to human freedom and peace. But I will pray with the Damanhurians any time, and that means I propose that we revision religion as spirituality. Perhaps the concept of individual responsibility for belief could help, but it's unlikely to catch on. If everyone went home from your conference and told their co-religionists, the ability to get on with other faiths should be an article of our own, that would be a start. But again arises the question, do people have the courage to follow through on even such an obviously beneficial idea? These days I tend to believe that all faiths represent only a staging post, and on principle, I follow none myself. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

I would not sign, although my reasons are different from most of the others. I would definitely agree with thelerner that: ... very true. The strength to follow through literally on all these items, even if one did agree with them all, is granted to very few people, but the weakness to agree to what sounds nice without understanding either it or oneself in detail is all too common. Since this is a religious conference, the question ought to be asked why 'know thyself' has fallen out of the religious phrasebook. Unless you do, you can do none of these things and have no business signing. Item number one in itself: ... would be enough to make world peace, without any of the others even being involved, if it were practiced with absolute consistency. But as Dogen Zenji said: "A three year old can say it, but an eighty year old can't practice it." This document is perhaps a good one to think about, but not in my opinion a good one to sign. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ EDIT: Cross-posted with goldisheavy whose view has a lot in common with mine.

deci belle I appreciate your input also. I always thought everyone worked this way! lol Oh, funky diagrams and Hermetics are intertwined like funky stances and Taoism or funky riddles and zen. lol If you want more (really want), check out this book: http://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Mysticism-He...5025&sr=1-4 ... it'll keep you going for years. I have no idea what most of it means. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

I have neither so cannot help! NW

Personally I wouldn't recommend you get any Bardon books, because your own practice is different and it would probably just be overthinky. I think just a look at the cover of the first book would be enough to give you a cross-cultural smile: ... I just enlarged the three figures at the bottom of the image. The two on the outside represent (alchemical stylee) not woman and man but 'the plus and minus in a human being' as he says. The red is +/yang and the blue -/yin, so the from and to is different in each case. Essentially it's the same as the interlocking funnels. The central androgyne represents the necessary equilibration between the principles, for which the orbit is also a valuable method. For me the thought/emotion thing is different from how you put it, because it is not really that one carries more information, it is more (for me personally) that there is a} a different type of information, and b} information that is not under conscious control and so it needs to be 'flowed with', and I think this is what you were trying to tell Hagar before, which I also was, concerning the image which pops up and tries to 'freeze the emotion'. As far as needing to dive into the sea of emotion is concerned, I know what you mean. To me the diaphragm is the shoreline. What I think you've supplied that was missing is the idea of things being in motion through the heart. This flow is key for me as well, and just releasing blockages which impede that flow is what causes the a-ha moment which we spoke of before. Thanks for the overlapping waves! NW

I'd like to thank Altiora as well for bringing in the Orthodox picture. There are some interesting stories floating around about what the secluded Christian monks and nuns are capable of, Tom Kenyon has told some so maybe Yoda knows more. Christianity is a closed book to me personally at the moment. When you said: ... there are some who would disagree: They take these things seriously in the Phillipines! Last Easter 25 people did it, we'll see how many next month. Yes actual nails. Mind you, it's nothing that shamans haven't been doing for thousands of years. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Ah this makes much more sense now! Your description of the void in particular, although the elemental angle you have on it doesn't quite... What interests me particularly is: the way you describe the void is an excellent description of what is called a 'volt' in Bardon's work, which is a reality one makes with a core of yang energy pushing out from the middle and a surround of yin binding in from the outside. Spherical in shape. It's wonderful to hear someone else describing this as a living reality, but out of a totally different perspective! And your 'funnel' way of seeing things corresponds very well with the way I see not only this particular question of letting go of one's judgements, but a huge amount of the Hermetic approach to the body. I don't know if you knew this but fire/yang is seen at the head and water/yin at the belly in Hermetics. And the heart area corresponds to air -- in Kabbalah they say, 'the heart decides'. As far as the funnel is concerned, I scanned this in to show a Hermetic idea: ... which as you can see is like two interpenetrating funnels. (courtesy Robert Fludd). And what would you say about the heart though? This is where I see a difference still, slightly... In the way I was thinking, it's not with the head that the belly must speak to unload, but the heart, and the head likewise must go to the heart -- in other words this movement I spoke about (water to air) is to do with communication and equilibration (attributes of air). As we say that a poem could 'speak from the heart'. And this although it 'crystalizes' the fluidity, it does so in the name of leaving a flower rather than a wall, to unblock rather than re-block. Does your particular brand of Taoism speak about the heart-mind? Of course this air-neutrality is super-important to me, as witness my screen name! But it is again just one approach, as you are saying, not exactly 'the truth'. I do indeed know the orbit and I've done it quite a lot as I began long ago with Glenn Morris, so I saw where you were going with that one on the old thread. In the Hermetic elemental practice the idea is to influence the whole system simultaneously by loading the elements into the elemental regions... but this takes us off-topic really. Bottom line on that one is that this is not 'movement' in either direction. What both those practices have in common is a desire to see the movement and equilibrate it to get inside. A comparison with the orbit is very interesting, but in the system Bardon taught, the elements are distinct from the way the void moves as having manifested in a particular way 'already'. The origin or cause of the movement is the void, so yin is not seen as unmoving, but moving opposite to yang. In other words, both plus and minus is already 'something not nothing'... but I am probably hairsplitting because I get the movement you're speaking of. You are definitely correct that the external aspect of the void is fearful (which is watery), indeed Bardon says precisely that. Very cool! My conception has just naturally evolved to fit this model, where different parts of the body can speak or can be silent in different ways... but it seems that even quite dissimilar approaches intuitively can approach one another, very interesting! All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Phore, you're welcome! Yoda, why didn't I think of that? Or maybe I did and it didn't work, can't remember now... NW

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Interesting perspective! So from your point view, what is the difference between the final step of IIH and nibbana? NW