NeutralWire

So you are saying the reason for ignorance is karma... why does karma produce ignorance? NW

Oh no, that part makes perfect sense... The thing which made less sense to me was that 'zero' which you said was everything where 'one' was something... you seemed to be saying this was equivalent to yin and yang respectively, but it's a much different view of yin and yang than I'm used to. To me + and - are normally seen as balanced, and the void neither of them, so neither has the greater claim on silence -- is this what you meant about being skewed towards yin? This is why I feel the difference in systems being practiced is very important. The movement I was talking about in the Hermetic conception is not 'back down to silence', but about the unconscious becoming conscious (water to air) in the ordinary mind. In other words, expression to me is what allows integration. Because then things can settle. Sometimes I thought you were saying this, sometimes I thought otherwise lol. It's iGod NW

*applause*

I agree, and thank Zeus! (We'll save the question of Buddha's concepts of 'luck' until another time eh? )

That's the theory mate. I'm still looking for mine. Well before you said there was no need to explain, because Buddha did such a good job...? I'm only asking what he said. Why have ignorance only then to undo the ignorance? Is there a reason for the ignorance being present? Does nature work without reasons? I think that 'Why is there ignorance at all?' is a great question as apepch7 said! 'So ignorance can be overcome' appears to be the answer -- and yet nothing seems to be gained by this, on your view, save to return to the situation that was in place before birth! -- surely the world would be equally enlightened then, whether a person who became enlightened was born or not? To me it seems that the world is gradually being transformed in some way by wisdom achieved. But what is gained by that? I don't know! lol NW

No need to resist! Are you saying that remembering this original face would remove my current state of conditioning?

That is a great definition of maya! But it doesn't give the reason for it... why is this conditioning there in the first place?

Remind me what he said again, on ignorance/maya, and why it's there, and how we are to dispel it? I'm rusty.

... and why?

It is a great question. Now personally I think CarsonZi is onto something -- free will. (Thinking about Freeform here on another thread...) Suppose you obtain 'enlightenment', what has actually changed? Has there been some improvement in the state of the universe, or not? This is something I was never able to comprehend. After all, if 'maya exists because of human free will', it is natural to ask, what is the so-great purpose behind the fact that humans are given this 'ignorance' which they must dispel? What is gained? Freeform himself seemed to feel that in a certain way, nothing at all was gained... But if maya is a purely human phenomenon, and we are here to dispel it, what is 'gained' by that dispelling? And if nothing is gained, why must it be done? Why is it so important that human free will be used to gain wisdom? What changes? It seems to be 'good' when we are wise, 'evil' when we aren't -- but what has 'God', who already has all and whose portion could never increase, to gain by such a plan? Am I helping here? No, I thought not... I agree that as you get closer to 'it', you don't worry so much, and maybe this in some way is the point. But why? lol All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

lol Plus it provides you with the stuff too. How's that for value, maya is underrated.

Hey Wayfarer64 - All Nature is but Art, unknown to thee; All chance, direction, which thou canst not see; All discord, harmony not understood; All partial evil, universal good: And, spite of pride, in erring reason's spite, One truth is clear: WHATEVER IS, IS RIGHT. - Alexander Pope ... was just reading this, thought you might like it! All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

I do it because of my belief that we all must develop spiritually, so why not put some effort into it, because it has improved my life so much, and because I love it! NW

Cool thread!

It depends if you are talking about the names used for things or about the things themselves, in a nutshell. Let's say it's certainly as pure as 'Taoism' is in my estimation... how pure that is, I'm not sure! NW

lol will do

The thing is, there's Hermetics and Hermetics... but this is another story. Bardon quotes David-Neel not because he got practices from her, but because her books were much read in occult circles of his period, and he wants the reader to understand that they don't have to go to Tibet to get certain effects... on the rest of the Syncretistic ideas, it will have to wait. Certainly regular scholars see it that way! But these are the same scholars who used to believe there were no real Egyptian elements in the Corpus... NW

Freeform - you're welcome and thanks in return! I dimly grasped your perspective for a second but I think (as so often) the differences in practice mean a necessarily different way of stating (at least). This bit makes sense for sure: And I guess I'm kind of with you. I think the directional elements are what is different... I can sense that, like me, you enjoy being flipped upside down haha. Moments like this are really why I like belonging to forums... what you say about addiction to 1 in the west mirrors what a lot of Bardonists say, but it's something that I personally haven't seen in a cultural way yet. I will have to think about that and digest carefully... All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ EDIT: There is a strange east-west conference going on with our avatars!

Nothing could be further from the truth IMO, but this would be a silly argument to have. You can be sure I am extremely careful in my comparisons, more so than you obviously think! But anyway... I think I will just post some of Rawn's notes on step 10 for the Hermetic student -- of course expressed in Hermetic terminology, just as all these experiences are always given in the terms of the particular practice. Then anyone who likes can determine the truthfulness of what I'm saying for themselves, and of course, all opinions are valid and personal. And anyway I hope it is interesting. If you really believe all this occurs 'in the desire realm' and that Buddhism is based on completely different concepts, then of course go ahead and practice accordingly! No point in endlessly reiterating.... Either way, what Rawn describes is what Bardon claims, and both are saying the experience is repeatable, that is, that method brings it on. Meanwhile, as far as concerns questions on 'identity' and 'power seeking'... a couple of months of actually practicing IIH may put right a few misconceptions, but no amount of forum back-and-forth is going to. Well that's a big subject! The bottom line is, it's about expanding one's mind, wisdom, experience of the cosmos, moral compass, and understanding of God's truth -- any more and you need a new thread. When did I say it was? I did not compare this path to any other, I simple said it was repeatable. Nan is an advocate of Zen, and his method seems to me to go all the way. This thread is about methods that go all the way! I'm not trying to compare paths here. The parallels between Bardon's practice and other forms of Buddhism (Tibetan) are very obvious to lots of people... and even I know that 'ignoring all phenomena' is hardly a good description of Zen... after all, Nan's book 'Tao and Longevity' is descriptions of phenomena from one end to the other! But then, since Zen is by definition indescribable, it probably doesn't matter. Bruce - No, although it's often done to plan for multiple lifetimes... it all depends on how you look at things, for example: Well yes and no... let us say you have a book that says do this and this, and say 50 more steps, and there is enlightenment. My question to you: if you do the first 30 steps and everything checks out, and you know someone who says, I did all 50 and yes they still all check out... isn't it more than educated speculation? Not certainty, not some kind of conveyor belt -- but certainty of the potential, yes. Certainty you are going in the right direction and cutting out alot of mistakes you would otherwise make -- unquestionably yes IMO. When I first met Glenn Morris (whose repeatable path is still repeating away nicely, I'm glad to see) he wasn't sure that reincarnation was even real; later he started remembering his past lives. I love it where he writes about visiting the astral realm where his mother -- on her deathbed -- is going to end up in spirit, and does some bargaining to make sure she's comfortable there. Meanwhile Rawn Clark says it's quite commonly done for a magician to plan where they will continue working for some time after dying, and even transfer their tools there... When I first read things like these, it was speculation. When I began to notice the sincerity, insight, and how many of these things were there between the lines in wisdom traditions worldwide, it became educated speculation. But the night I first found myself looking down at my body from the region of the ceiling was the night it became more than speculation. Some general thing called the 'vedic path' or the 'Hermetic' path is definitely different from something which proves a step-by-step repeatable effectiveness to others and, gradually, to oneself, this is the way I see it. You've taken a step away from 'faith' when someone you're sitting next to says it works repeatedly and (for reasons best known to each person individually) you trust them. Human trust is different from generalized faith, and is precious. One gets the confirmations available. I don't say anyone 'has the true path', of course not, nor even that a path is necessary -- maybe just as much can be achieved without one. But that is not the question at issue. The question at issue is, are repeatable paths a myth? The answer is no, they're not. Everyone's experience of a given path will be very unique, but the same path can work repeatably. You'll all be relieved to know I shall not comment further on this subject! I'm slipping off the shoulders of my giants here... over to Rawn... All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ (BTW, the 'Unity' is a term he uses to avoid precisely any sorts of religious arguments.) I must caution you at this point that due to the finite nature of words, it is impossible for me to accurately describe either the Unity or the experience of merging with the Unity. Non-sequential experiences simply don't fit into such sequentialized things as words! Consequently, each thing I say in this regard will be only partially true and will convey things in a sequential manner that belies the essential non-sequentialized reality of the Unity. But even in saying this I have implied things that are inaccurate. Case in point is when I say that the Unity is non-sequential. The deeper mystery is that the Unity encompasses both the sequential and the non-sequential realms, simultaneously. When I say it is non-sequential, I am referring more to how the Unity appears to our sequentialized human consciousness and not to its essential nature. Often, how we attempt to describe the indescribable involves pointing more to the differences between these things and "normal" things, than it does to their similarities. The greatest problem with this is that pointing out only differences seems to limit our understanding of the essential Unity of Being. In the hopes of avoiding that obfuscation, I will try to point out as many similarities as I can in what follows. The first thing I should say in terms of describing the merging with the Unity, pertains to the sense of self that the magician experiences. The self-awareness of the Unity is often described as an "I am" state, but what is often overlooked is the fact that this deific sense of self-identity is of the same quality as that experienced by a normal human being. The only difference is in quantity as the Unity encompasses every thing that has existence and the individual human encompasses only a minute portion of that infinite expanse. It is, in fact, this continuum of alikeness that the magician follows in the ascent or expansion of the quantity of consciousness. In simplistic terms, the magician stands firmly rooted in the quality of self-awareness and expands the quantity of that awareness until it encompasses the Unity of All Being. The implications of this in practice are that the magician, once merged with the Unity, experiences the entire universe as if it were in fact a part of their own self. There is no part of the infinite universe of which the Unity is not aware. This brings us to the four attributes of deity, which I think will serve as a good foundation for further describing the ramifications of merging with the Unity. Please note that the four attributes listed in Step Ten vary slightly from those listed in Step Nine. It is the Step Ten list that I will concern myself with here, though it pays to compare the two on your own. The four attributes are -- 1) Omnipotence (All powerfulness): This is associated with the Element Fire. The sort of omnipotence experienced by the Unity, and by one merged with the Unity, is not akin to the popular conceptualization of a god "up there" who points down at us mere mortals and, poof!, things change according to "his" will. The Unity's omnipotence works from the inside-out of EVERY thing, all at once. There is no splitting of consciousness at the level of the Unity proper -- the splitting of consciousness is only a manifestation of the Unity. Within the Unity, there is also no willing akin to human willing. Instead, the Unity exists all at once, as a unified whole, and what we think of as divine will is merely the Unity being what it naturally is. When initiates speak about merging with the divine will and say things like "let Thy will be my will", an incorrect impression is given that the individual will is somehow transplanted by a higher will. This is not the case. The individual will is transformed by the experience of merging, not replaced. Again, an initiate follows the continuum of similarity as they rise to the divine. The thread of similarity here has to do with the fact that the human will is an aspect or manifestation of the divine will. And once again, the difference is a matter of quantity not of quality. The omnipotence of the lesser gods is more limited that of the Unity. Because they exist below the Abyss, they are finite, sequentialized creatures. Thus they are of limited, specific use to the magician. For example, in modern ceremonial magic, one must carefully choose the appropriate "god form" for the task at hand. But if one can merge with the Unity, then nothing is impossible. But having said that, I should note that the magician capable of merging with the Unity will not be willing petty things nor things that violate the universal lawfulness. You must keep in mind that this transformation touches the individual adept at EVERY level of his or her being. 2) Omniscience (All knowing): This is associated with the Element Air. The root essence of the Unity -- the stuff of which it is composed -- is consciousness. Every thing that exists (mentally, astrally and physically) is a manifestation of this consciousness. The consciousness of the Unity is self-aware within all of its parts or manifestations, simultaneously and fully. In other words, the Unity knows EVERY thing, from the inside-out. This is not just the knowing of an external observer; rather, it is the knowing of a participant. I wish for you to carefully consider the implications of this for the magician who merges with the Unity. Truly, any thing the magician wishes to know or explore is made instantly available. But this knowing will be from the inside-out in a most intimate manner. It is similar in quality to the sort of knowing we experience in our daily lives as we pass through a specific event. The difference is, as usual, in the quantity of the knowing. For example, we all know how to tie our shoes because we have experienced it numerous time, but in relation to the Unity we are like a small child who has never tied a shoe and our understanding of this mysterious art comes from the descriptions of our parents. In other words, the Unity knows EVERY thing from the inside-out and the normal human knows only a relatively few things from this perspective. I must say that the conceptualization of this sort of all knowing is quite different from the actual experience. The magician who merges with the Unity is not only ABLE to know everything, she/he DOES know everything *while in the merged state*. Few magicians, however, choose to bring this knowledge back into their normal consciousness used for daily life. Knowing too much tends to take all the fun out of life -- there is no longer any surprise. 3) All-Love or Mercifulness (Divine benevolence): This is associated with the Element Water. Please note that in Step Nine, Bardon associates Immortality with Water. The divine Mercy is similar in quality to human love, except that in the human manifestation of love we tend to direct it at specific persons, ideas and things. Thus our human love is more limited than the divine love and it is a projection from ourselves to something external (self-love aside). The deific love of the Unity comes from a broader perspective that includes EVERY thing and it works from within each thing. It is without bias and is shared equally with All that exists. It is common for us to wonder how the unpleasant aspects and events of life can exist in a universe permeated by a Benevolent deity. The answer to this lies within the quantity aspect of the divine benevolence or Mercy. The Unity permeates the whole of the infinite universe all at once and completely, thus it has an eternal perspective from which every event is seen as conforming to the universal lawfulness of things. In other words, from the eternal perspective of the Unity, benevolence is an undercurrent in All events, even the most unpleasant ones. Suffering exists for a reason. It teaches us lessons that we have not been able to otherwise learn through more pleasant means. So at the core of each unpleasant situation lies the divine benevolence that knows this is the way in which we must learn -- it is the root lesson that holds the benevolence, the manifestation of events is itself secondary. The only way sometimes, to perceive the divine benevolence behind unsavory events is to broaden one's perspective to include lifetimes instead of single moments. An adept who has merged with this divine Mercifulness may at times seem very stern, but this should not be mistaken for a lack of caring. At its root is the awareness of a much broader perspective on things than the ordinary human consciousness is able to achieve. Such an adept will feel a deep love and concern for all creatures and will manifest their loving kindness willfully and in the most appropriate manner befitting the occasion. 4) Immortality (The same as Omnipresence in this case): This is associated with the Element Earth. In Step Nine, Bardon lists Omnipresence here, but if you think about it, this is essentially the same as Immortality in that the Unity is an immanent thing and thus it exists throughout the whole of space-time. The divine Immortality is not the same thing as what we consider when we think about the immortality of a human form. Theoretically, human immortality (if such a thing were to exist) is strictly a moment-to-moment matter of prolonged duration. In other words, the immortal human would pass through time moment-by-moment. While the quality of this is similar to divine Immortality, the quantity is quite different. The Immortality of the Unity occurs at an eternal level -- the moment-by-moment duration is only a manifestation of the eternal Immortality. But, and here's a big but, nothing that is either astral or physical in its nature is eternal or immortal. True Immortality exists only at the level of the eternal, non-sequential realm. I compare the Immortality of the Unity with its Immanence and say that they are the same thing because the Unity's Immortality is eternal. It has no beginning and no ending and there is no 'who', 'what', 'why', 'where' or 'when' that does not partake of the Unity. The connection between these two may be easiest to perceive when you consider the space-time continuum. From the eternal perspective, the whole infinite span of space-time is perceived as one single present moment or as a grand, infinite "Now". But, since the Unity is Immortal and eternal, this perspective is not just a from-afar sort of experience; instead, it is experienced simultaneously from the inside-out -- from the perspective of each thing involved with the minute details of the physical manifestation of space-time to the most ephemeral and comprehensive experience of space-time. While the feeling or quality of Immanence is similar to what the student experienced in Step Six with the practice of being aware of their mental body within their astral and physical bodies, there is a difference in terms of quantity. For the Unity, there is no separateness -- there is no immediate sense of being WITHIN a body. Instead, the Unity completely fills the embodiments of its Immanence. The entire infinity of the manifest universe IS the Unity -- it is not the mere shell which houses the Unity. There is no separation between the "body" of the Unity and the Unity itself. When we look at a rock or a leaf or through an electron microscope at a single molecule, we are looking directly at the Unity. When we look at each other or within our own selves, we are looking at the Unity. I will now close my comments upon the merging with the Unity with one final note. This pertains to the process the adept must undergo in order to integrate the experience of merging into their daily lives. Many fail to successfully re-cross the Abyss and return to their normal functioning consciousness. I presume you are aware of the many tales of mystics who have returned from an especially deep experience only to become raving lunatics. Here is where preparation and a proper training come into play for the Hermetic magician. In many ways, the integration into the normal day-to-day consciousness of an experience of the non-sequential eternal realm is an even more difficult task than the achieving of such an experience. The experience of Unity is so foreign to our normal level of self-awareness that it, in effect, doesn't fit, in its entirety, within the confines of normal human consciousness. Thus it is of vital importance that the adept have a thorough working knowledge of their mechanisms of perception. Essentially, the adept must translate and interpret the non-sequential experience into terms understandable to the normal, sequentialized consciousness. Only in this way can such an experience be integrated at a normal functional level. Upon the return to normal waking consciousness, the adept will be inexorably transformed. So deep and pervasive a transformation requires a reassessment and a readjustment of the adept's personality and individuality akin the Step One and Two work with the soul mirrors, but on a much broader level. The adept will not be able to retain full consciousness of the infinite details encountered in the merging experience once he/she has returned to a normal state of awareness. These details (the fullness of the experience) must be compressed in the memory and be made available so the adept can draw upon them at any moment desired. But to experience the fullness of a merging experience, the adept must be within the non-sequential realm and be functioning with their higher mind. This dichotomy of being so close, yet so far, from Unity, can at first be very disorienting even for the most advanced adept. Once again, the training of the previous nine Steps is essential for success in this matter.

Well if you read the link I gave, you already know! This is not a 'definition' of course, because you can't define it. It is a description, and an incomplete one... it corresponds with other definitions as far as I know. The most important thing is that the entire universe is experienced as one thing I guess... but I shouldn't really speak of it as if I know! What I would say is this: There are those who say that 'enlightenment' is only achieved when the individuality is completely dissolved. This is definitely not Bardon's way though. He agrees with Nan Huai-Chin who says 'being enlightened once is like not being enlightened at all'. In other words you practice this ability to merge with the One, as I understand it, until you can do it with greater and greater facility. But you don't dissolve into it, according to Bardon, because there is so much to learn! For example, the nirva-kalpa-samadhi, the 'perfect consciousness of micro- and macrocosm', happens after this form of 'enlightenment', and this is more a divinization of the soul and body and an energetic connection to the planets, etc. Which as I understand it brings a different kind of wisdom and deepens things. Then there is alchemy... Bardon's idea is that you learn all this and more... (let's not forget he said there were at least 21 of these systems of wisdom...) and you continually incarnate and fulfill missions for Providence and experience more and more, until at last, 'because your longing is very great' as he says, you dissolve your individuality. Now, which bit of this is the 'enlightenment'? For the purposes of this conversation perhaps it just doesn't matter. All of these things are repeatable paths, and repeatable paths is our subject. But I myself would say, when you have experienced the 'merging with the Creator', as it were, that will do for me as 'enlightenment' or 'union with the Tao' of the first kind. I mean, we should all be so blessed! Rawn Clark might add that there are other realms beyond that, but that these are incomprehensible to the human mind -- in this, he agrees with other reports. So what that comes down to meaning is, this is some kind of ultimate -- and just as Michael Winn says, it is a moment that only 'happens when it happens', or just as the Sufis say, it can't be found by seeking, yet only seekers find it. Etc. And it is to apprehend the ultimate, higher or deeper than which you can't go. To me that all sounds like enlightenment. I guess if I get there and it isn't, I'll fell gypped! lol... but this seems unlikely. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

I don't believe literally in maya as illusion -- but apepch7 is right, this is just the clever answer. It's still a good question -- 'Why should there be ignorance at all?' Unfortunately it comes down to one or two other good old philosophical chestnuts that have no definite answer -- why is there something rather than nothing? That's a good one. Also, is anything gained by the whole universe being enlightened? That's another. In the 'Kybalion' they say that, when asked why God created the universe, Hermes pursed his lips and remained silent. That much said, behind human karma in particular there certainly does seem to be some kind of story -- many stories, and all obscure! Myself, I say that as a result of the universe something is occuring, but I don't go further than that! I hope this isn't a lawyer's answer... Did anyone ever read Michael Morgan? Someone was telling me about him. He writes about God, and about his experimental nature in creating the universe. Haven't quite got around to reading that yet... but don't some channelled works talk about this? Bill Mistele claims he had certain questions about the nature of the universe which have been answered, but he won't say what the questions are, never mind the answers. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

'the fabric of the world was made from the gods or the souls of gods and the gods were as part of creation as we are'... hmm yes. Hermetics obviously holds this attitude, principally because, well, isn't it the truth of the way things actually are lol? Essentially you are talking about the divinity of matter, and this is the necessary difference you see between an 'alchemical' approach and one which, so to speak, places the divine 'elsewhere' -- is that right? As in, it becomes a question of whether the physical world is immanently divine? It's interesting because at the same time I personally feel very conscious of the fact that there is a separation or border as well, to do with the ability to see the divinity of matter (sense it) or not -- as in having astral sensoria or whatever boring non-poetic term one wants to use! It seems to me that every spiritual sage in every tradition has a vision of the way the earthly is fed by the divine, but some choose to honour the otherness of the nonphysical more than its presence... these things perhaps become a matter of wording in the end, but that wording influences an entire culture. Looking at, say, the Hebrew attitude to nature ('every blade of grass has an angel bending over it who whispers, grow, grow...') you see the divinity as something essentially outside the natural world and bringing it pass, but not actually incarnated in it in the way you are talking about. I personally don't see Hermetics as being quite so opportunistically syncretistic as you do... but whatever! NW

freeform - I think there is! But I possibly am not explaining it too well... when you say this: ... I think I see the issue -- I'm not saying you 'try to keep the juice'. It is a good analogy to drinking actual fruit juice: some of it is absorbed, some of it excreted. This is not a process equivalent to 'nothing happening', something is gained from it -- experience, nutrition, taste sensation, exchange of energy, however you want to look at it. So it's not a case of 'trying to hold onto' anything but of savouring deeply and extracting nutrients, ie. understanding one's experiences and integrating them into the psyche. This is what allows one to 'let go' in the way you mean. It is something that happens naturally once the experience is integrated. Whereas, as we know, experience that people cannot integrate into the psyche (in the worst example, trauma) cannot have its nutrients of wisdom extracted and cannot have its waste excreted, and there to my mind is where you have a blockage. In this case your thoughts run compulsively towards the object and trying to understand it, but the nutrients aren't extracted and the quieting-down does not occur. What you are saying here: ... I would agree with 100%. I could say it this way: the first Bardon exercise is about observing thoughts until the torrent slows, and finally there are just a couple of distant thoughts arising, then nothing. This is very first thing you do in Bardon, and my point is that after that, you are living 'close to the silence'. You know the difference between the feeling of there really being something to think (that is an insight or an a-ha moment to be savoured) versus just thinking in the way of running on and grasping, which is equivalent to an untrained consciousness. And you know how to allow things to wind down and empty out, which I think is quite similar to what you are talking about. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Well how do you bring ruminations of any kind to an end? When a certain feeling of having deeply absorbed the meaning of something emerges I would say. Just absorbing it, not trying to find the perfect words or ideas... let those come or not come. But the feeling is there that you understand -- or at least, understand all you can. I should stop banging on about it, but Bardon's Hermetics is so helpful here. Your very first exercises (before emptiness of mind) are to be able to sit and control your thoughts without interfering, steer them this way or that, observe them, keep them to a particular subject, etc. (And with your life as well). This gets you used to the idea that your thoughts are very productive of insights, very much an intimate part of yourself -- but also, an activity that you can treat as any other activity. A passion for too much thinking is the same as any other passion. So when it's time to sit and absorb your experiences in your understanding, you do that, and when it's time to stand up and do something else, you do something else! All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Minkus you speak as for me. NW