NeutralWire

Adam Mizner - Absolutely, but I don't mean enlightenment in terms of an ending of course. That clearly is the end of book 1, and if that was all there was to it, there would be no more books! But there are plenty more books. Still, yes. You don't agree? NW

To me this is really over-complicating matters. All of the 'perspectives' you are talking about are just thoughts! Simply observe them, get the juice out of their process, and then let them go. NW

Fascinating info on the decans particularly... by the time of the Hermetica they were being thought of in similar terms to the astrology of the planets etc. They're said to have great influence over the earth and the fates of nations, to have servants, ministers and warriors, and to be the cosmic engine of the universe. There's an interesting enigma that probably will never be resolved in Hermes' talk on the decans. He mentions that they 'cast in the earth the seed of those whom men call Tanes'... no-one knows who the Tanes are though! G.R.S. Mead connected them with Titanas or Titans... anyway, whoever they were, some of them 'played the part of saviours' whilst others were 'most destructive'. ?? Anyway the decans in the Hellenistic period were clearly being described a little differently... NW

'Martial Arts Madness' by Glenn Morris. I picked it up one day for no reason at all -- wasn't into spirituality, wasn't into martial arts. It's been an interesting few years since then! Whenever I want to remember why I'm doing this I can pick up that book... his tone of voice is just right for me. ~NeutralWire~

An old astrology teacher of mine swore that a statue in the British museum spoke to him, and someone explained to him that its mouth must have been opened. It was Sekhmet. He lives in the states now but she still speaks to him! BTW The Bardon system has a way of enlivening statues and pictures using elemental energies. But no directions! (Because they are stacked by densities, Robert Fludd style.) Interesting (to me) is the fact that Isis and Nephthys appear on the cover of Bardon's second book: (the two portraits on the wall.) BTW Glenn Morris told me he met Nephthys. "Yeah, she's still around..." He was very impressed with her. lol. Yoda - They had the decans. When did they get those? I don't know. They're mentioned in the Hermetica. From your last bit apepch7, are you thinking that cardinal/fixed/mutable triplicity was something the Egyptians themselves had? All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Sorry Mikaelz, just noticed your questions - ahem, neutralwire... Hmm... I might have to write a short article on this to point to. First off, read this page carefully: http://www.abardoncompanion.com/IIH-Step10.html ... and realize that the only alternatives are that Rawn Clark is 'enlightened' (Adam Mizner -- my definition) or that he's lying. I could say, take it from me, he isn't lying, but there's really no point. If you're interested you will discover the truth. I'm not interested in those oh-yes-he-is-oh-no-he-isn't types of arguments! Secondly, as I've mentioned before, Rawn did a survey of 500 people practicing Bardon's system and 14 had reached the end of the first book which means they were also enlightened. That was in 2003 if I remember. Again, whether you believe this is or true or not is your business, but I can assure you Rawn has ways of telling if people are lying or sincere on such an issue. For what that's worth. Thirdly, that was only one survey. That wasn't everybody. Fourthly, there are at least two other fairly public and fairly serious Bardonist teachers on the net, namely Moryason and Mistele, with their students. Fifthly, there is alot that is completely private where Bardon is concerned. His system is growing much more outside the public eye than within it, because it doesn't dovetail too well with current cultural norms. I could go on but this is easily enough! To someone anonymous in a forum (however worthy the forum ) - you don't of course. One's own experience is what matters. These things are of course very personal. I agree with necessity for role models and they are out there, not only for Bardon's system either. Another system which for various reasons I'm sure can lead to enlightenment is that of Nan Huai Chin. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

How do you deal with the urge to grasp your experienecs, freeze them into stories? To me stories are not frozen but living and open-ended, in fact I base a great deal of my self-process on stories and storytelling. What are your techniques or approaches to detatching from your experieces during practice? I explore the state thoroughly and let it go using 'Thought Discipline'. How careful or relaxed are you towards verbalizing your experiences, and telling others about them? I almost never speak about my experiences, but I do verbalize them in detail to myself and explore them using various symbolic ideas. And finally How often do you see that your initial interpretation of what happened was based on an erroneous or unfruitful paradigm? Usually these days my interpretation has proven to be correct. In old times I use to jump to conclusions. Nowadays I will always explore my interpretation until I am sure it is correct, but oftentimes I have found initial intuition is unimproveable. Are there times when recognizing, and also verbalizing your experience is a steppingstone to integration of that experience? Yes, every time. I always have some way to communicate to myself about the ongoing process that is happening. This is essential for me in order that it be a real experience and that the value of it be recognized and come right through all parts of my consciousness. Some of the most important things I've done in my practice have been about developing ways to understand the flow of things and get out of their way, also to do with embracing underlying meanings and movements vis-a-vis the energy of my life in general. Interesting questions, thanks! All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

ThisLife - Just wanted to say, I posted an article entitled 'Bardon's Hermetics as an Egyptian Practice' which will tell you something about Hermetics. Here's the link: http://www.thetaobums.com/Bardonand39s-Her...tice-t8826.html Bruce - You're right, and also more able to act freely and in a balanced manner. But I feel there are many, many more parallels between paths than this. For example the comments I've posted elsewhere about the development of astral senses in Bardon's system when compared with Huai-Chin Nan's system. These are very comparable indeed. (I guarantee there is no 'enlightened' person in the world who has not developed astral senses.) These things get easier the more years you have under your belt. Personally I do practice 100% of the time now. Bardon's second exercise is to learn to concentrate all the time. It's essential IMO. I agree that if you don't practice this (which you can work up to gradually) then it's harder to really live a practice. Of course you have to be constantly aware. I've already recommended this book: http://www.amazon.com/Self-Hypnosis-Revolu...4140&sr=1-1 ... as a way to practice during all non-sleep hours which will definitely advance you IMO, I will continue to recommend that one. Just one more repeatable item. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

... as do I of course. Many misunderstandings surrounding it, though, sure, whether due to bigotry or mere historical accident... but many fresh winds shaking the boughs just at present. I've seen the rather different methods of Taoism as very much compatible with Hermetics philosophically, in what you're calling 'alchemical' terms -- that is, respect for the bodiedness of the infinite as a divine completion of a living cycle. I think it gets too caught up in words sometimes, I am not sure the differences in that respect are huge. They're quite big in other respects though. Solve et Coagula isn't really the Taoist way so far as I know. It's going to be good for me listening to you because the religious symbolism is not something I know enough about. Hermetics was already abstracted out of religion, and Bardon intended (as I think Yoda said) to make it even more so -- in order that it would be compatible with as many people's views as possible. When I look at the public teachers of his system he succeeded, because their vibes are very individual. Hermetics is changing now, not only because of him. It has come North and it has gone outdoors. lol I can't find much more to say about the Tablet from what you said, which I simply agree with. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Totally agree. I treat the learning and purification that occurs in this physical dimension as a holy act if you like. I'm sure alot of others are the same. Personally I have to reserve judgement on what western 'alchemy' is until I have more experience. I often have the feeling that all really old traditions are 'alchemical' in the sense you mean here. The as above so below thing, and the power of analogy it creates, is totally correct for me. What you say about a continuum between lowest and highest is also very very Hermetic in the modern Bardonist sense, I really can't add anything to that! As I say I see this in other traditions too though. Druidry for example, and I think Taoism too. On this: ... I would just add that the Hermetics have always been extremely aware of 'what it is', of the multiple levels of reality and of the way they behave with respect to one another. In other words I don't think they began from the physical world point of view. It really does bear repeating that the first Bardon book ends in 'enlightenment', viz, the ability to see all things as one thing -- all time, all love, all power, all law, all creation. That's not the final thing and that's not 'where it ends'. That's the beginning of more. (For one thing, as you have pointed out, 'its power' is not 'perfect' until it is 'converted into earth.') According to Bardon (and the mind does start to boggle a bit) there are way more than just the skills he mentions. He mentions there is an initiation for every single major arcanum of the tarot deck -- that would be 21 initiations, of which the first five include 'enlightenment', complete exploration of all energies of the universe, creative speech, complete wisdom and the philosopher's stone! I don't think this hugeness is unique to Hermetics at all, and I think a book like 'Dragon Gate' for example does argue that Taoism has the same attitude. I would add that other senses develop in all these traditions which show the world in a different way. The causes of something and their connections are all inherent in the living object itself. Could write more but must go! NW

Sounds like a good mag, thanks for the recommend. NW

Yay! Here it is! And I was right... this is definitely going to spark more than any anonymous web page would have done by itself. I agree with just about everything you wrote here and you have alot that I never saw. First on this: Well I definitely agree in a certain sense. Whatever in IIH isn't basic to most paths is definitely Hermetic and has an alchemical flavour, as the two (alchemy and Hermetics) were more or less synonymous for hundreds and hundreds of years, which I'm sure you knew... but the actual 'alchemy' itself in Bardon's system (and I believe, generally) is much more an advanced thing. That is if you are talking about the philosopher's stone. One day I hope to know more about it, but if Bardon had written anything on this subject it would have been the fifth book he wrote, beyond the three he did manage to write plus one more after that. So it would have been incredibly advanced. Also, the water magic and so forth that he talks about is not uncommon in other paths. Nonetheless the use of energies and so on is very much alchemical in the western Hermetic sense -- more on that below. That myth hasn't really stuck in my mind. I'll look it up. What's fascinating is, in the discussion following the article I wrote there was mention about the 'structure' of Bardon's elements. And it was said that the elements work precisely as you are saying here -- interaction of fire and water making air, all three condensing to earth. Adam Mizner pointed out that Air is more precisely a neutral between fire and water, but nonetheless, this matches what you are saying. Again I agree completely with your interpretation. There are those who say that the initial Bardon 'Soul Mirror' work, which involves looking at yourself in terms of what element forms what piece of your character, is the beginning of an analogous process in the human soul. Again I think that's totally right. This is the process of Bardon's first two books (later stages thereof) in a nutshell as well, analogously. You separate out your soul bodies from your physical form, go a-wandering to take in each planetary sphere, and then bring the energies of those spheres back by means of evocation, thus 'earthing' them. I was interested in the idea of the Solar Cycle too. In general though I'm not as up on mythological Egypt as I'd like. I will take a refresher. You've certainly made enough points to show a connection between the ET and Bardon. The Egyptianness thing might need more study on my part. That's my reaction, anyway nice article and worth waiting for IMO. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

It's likely apepch7 means the other emerald tablet, the old one. In fact it's more than likely, it's true, without falsehood, certain, most certain! This page collects many texts of the Tablet in question: http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/emerald.htm This page has Rawn Clark's interesting commentary on it: http://www.abardoncompanion.com/EmeraldTablet.html I know but tbh it's not a subject I know anything about, and since I don't practice (what I would call) alchemy at the moment, I wasn't really thinking about it. But if you've been thinking about it perhaps you would spark something off in us all... I think it... likely. I thought it would be fun anyway. How weird is that though, that it wouldn't post? Almost as if the computer elementals felt you were revealing too much heh heh All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

This is getting a little ridiculous! Was it ever established why the article didn't appear, and/or can anyone help in some way?

My two cents: there are absolutely repeatable and verifiable aspects to spiritual improvement. They're perfectly clear and they're there for all to see. They're not the whole deal. No system is complete and humanity's spiritual journey has hardly begun. There are unknown factors, personal and individual factors, and those are vital too. And the 'moment' of enlightenment is not to be predicted by anyone. But a good method to follow does absolutely make all the difference in the world. Certain things predictably arise at certain points upon all paths. There are many things that need attending to and there is nothing better than trying to learn a good perspective upon them from someone who has trodden the path before oneself -- if indeed they have really trodden it and know how to get you going on it themselves. ('The bullshit on this topic is deep and wide' - Glenn Morris.) A successful spiritual lineage creates an energetic gateway almost. But you still have to pass through the gateway yourself. It is absolutely true that you can get fixated on imitating, and/or guru-dependent, and therefore unable to manifest, but this is a psychological thing owing to insufficient self-knowledge. If the method is good it does indeed being forth fruit in other people. The system I like best, Bardon's Hermetics, does exactly that since people who have followed have indeed obtained enlightenment. I see definite signs that enlightenment is possible with other methods that have been published too. These successes are indeed 'because of the method', because of the ability to pass on something which can cut short the search. It's still the student doing it, not the method, and there are still very personal differences between the way the same method will work with different people -- but a good method honours this fact, allowing for personal differences and indeed expecting personal experiment. Paths don't inevitably and mechanically produce a kind of conveyor belt of 'enlightened' human beings. The Buddha himself recommended not simply taking anyone's word for anything, including his. But there are so very many things that it helps to know and practice and think about, and it's good to pass those things on. If they are combined into a coherent method, in my opinion it will most often take people way way past what they would have been able to do otherwise. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

The point you raise is absolutely crucial in my opinion. In the system I'm using, the Hermetic system of Franz Bardon, there is no energy work at all until there is complete self-knowledge and elemental balance in the personality. Since I began practicing, I have felt this to be the the only real way to progress -- for myself, anyhow. For me it's like night and day. I was actually trying to explain this very thing to Lino on his personal thread here. Lino has had exactly this problem, of too much energy without self-knowledge, and it's something I used to have to deal with as well. You can deal with it, but I learned in a fairly hard manner that I must know myself before I work with any energies of that kind. At the risk of being a little controversial I want to touch on something about this that dovetails with the practice of Nan Huai-Chin which is outlined in his book 'Tao and Longevity'. That practice, although culturally very different, is actually rather similar to Bardon's. In Nan's practice there comes a point when astral senses are developed. He says something very interesting -- that not everyone will develop every astral sense. (Some develop only two, some only one.) In Bardon's system this is not allowed and I feel it is vitally important to understand why. These astral senses are linked to the elements. (In the Hermetic elemental systems, fire=sight, air=hearing, etc.) If a person reaches the stage of developing astral senses -- equivalent to Bardon step VII -- but does not develop all of those senses, it is a sign that elemental balance in the personality has not been achieved. But there's no comprehensive system in Nan's book for developing the self-knowledge needed to balance the elements. A person who continues on to 'enlightenment' without that balance is not complete and their enlightenment will not be complete either. In that 'Tao and Longevity' book I was actually very surprised to see that certain movements of chi were mentioned as ones that could cause problems in some people, eg. chi passing through the heart area -- but that these problems were never seen as linked to the personality. (In other words, it was never said that the way you live or use your heart energy is the reason for the difficulty the chi is having in passing through the heart area.) Self-knowledge prevents such problems from occurring. All 'blocked chi' is blocked life-story which needs to be addressed, and I believe, it's far better that it be addressed in a fairly complete manner, so that the life flows well, before something like 'enlightenment' is contemplated. I would love to know other systems apart from Bardon's that use self knowledge to obtain elemental balance specifically, because since beginning to work that way I know that 'energy problems' I once had have gradually been removed, without my needing to do any 'energy work'. I believe the 'heilkunst' system studied by Karen has something of the kind in it. Forestofsouls has mentioned that he uses a Buddhist system for this and I would love to know more about that. This is one of those subjects that is not touched on as often as it could be, for me. I would also like to know whether people believe that the 'fusion' practice of the Healing Tao is sufficient to make that kind of elemental balance. My personal belief is that the systems which come from a purely monastic or hermitlike background sometimes have problems developing an elemental balance suitable for a human being who has a regular social life. Please understand I'm speaking with complete candour! Mine are not the only problems I've experienced from people going too far into energy (or other things) too fast. I've frequently been there when some bad energy bubbles burst, and it's not a pretty sight. In picking up the pieces it's not unnatural for me to wonder why the safeguard of 'know thyself' isn't insisted upon in more of the systems that are being given out these days, especially since the results of successfully pursuing self-knowledge are so satisfying. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

Survival skills are useful in emergencies, and IMO brilliant for getting back in touch with reality, but this is not where civilization is going to go long term obviously! Living off the land is great, but as a lifestyle could not support many people. Living near a farm or two... that's very smart. Especially if they are organic/permaculture. But there are going to be more and more local truck farms plying the cities as well. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

You're welcome! NW

Interesting but a little on the zen side for me. Hoping the glitches will be sorted when I return later...

Very similar to other forms of remote viewing.

lol! That's funny. EDIT: Oops. Looked it up -- not so funny. Very very seriously deluded, followers of her 'philosophy' have become ill and even died. She was put to the test on TV ("live for a week on no food, show us how it's done") and they had to call a halt because she became ill. Couldn't she just have said 'I can't do this near negative thinkers' like other frauds? *sigh* ~NW~

This sort of thing is far too common. All doctors are human beings and some are simply better than others, but the whole establishment is getting ridiculously out of whack. Brings to mind Victoria Boutenko ("12 Steps to Raw Foods"). She had a daughter who couldn't run without coughing, a diabetic 9yo son about to go on insulin, and a husband who was told it would be wheelchairs for him until death. On herself, the doctors simply said, start praying. Four months later, all four of them ran a 10k, no doctors at all, just a diet switch. Most of the more serious practitioners on the ttb forums are probably looking at diet, probably doing qigong or yoga, probably meditating, probably exercising enough. Some may even be into herbs, self-knowledge, homeopathy, seminal retention, acupuncture or other good healing things. Most of them don't work according to the medicos, but when you feel this healthy you can only laugh. My friend Simon wrote a great book in the 80s on how to cure AIDS with nutrition, and now edits a leading trade-only alt med mag. You should hear him talk about the FDA. The big pharma drugs that get through to mainstream surgeries are often getting through on flimsy evidence with a whiff of the tainted about it, whilst very good methods are not able to get official testing at all -- or they get it with weird impossibilities attached. It adds up to: people who don't look into it all themselves may never hear about something that would save their lives. And it could be something incredibly simple. This conversation also joins neatly onto the food- and energy-shortage one. Big pharma needs oil and is energy intensive. That means it's not going to adapt too well to future conditions. Traditional methods work whether your civilization has just won a fossil fuel jackpot, or has already blown it all and is starting to argue about whose fault it is. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

It should be http://www.thevenusproject.com/ I think. Technology plays a role in our future. People have got to be thinking about minimal sustainable resources harmonizing with ecosystems though. We're heading into a dark age over the next couple of centuries, and what comes out will be more along those 'ecotechnic' lines as Greer says -- IMO no-one has any clue what it will be like yet, so the ability to improvise and come up with ideas that remain workable after oil starts diminishing more seriously is very important. So far as considerations like that go, the Venus Project is good. Where I think it's not so good is that they are thinking of big, civic, government-funded things or industrial scale things. The illustrations look like Eisenhower is still president! The more useful things will be on a smaller scale and less flashy. It's not that one mustn't think big, only that one must do small. This is my hunch. The days of thinking about dams across the Bering Strait are really behind us now. The West is really only a hair's breadth from being technically bankrupt, and personally, I don't look forward to a panic sell of US government paper. But it's a very good time to think in a Taoist way. Don't worry about money. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~

There will certainly be increasing food shortages in the next few years, as well as fuel shortages. Those who want to live in a place where it won't matter so much, that link again: http://www.transitiontowns.org/ ... there's even one in Brixton now! For you UK city dwellers. I visited their launch, very interesting. And don't forget the archdruid, the best analyst of what is happening: http://www.thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com ... he practices nei gong you know. And he's an archdruid. And he has been tracking this since the seventies. This is not going to be business as usual IMHO. There will be many confidence-shaking crises to come, for those relying on outmoded paradigms. But it's not the end of the world! Just the gradual decline of technological civilization. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~