ThisLife

I was attracted by the opening topic of this thread and, after reading half a dozen or so of the first replies, I zoomed here to the end to find out where things had got in "real time". Surprisingly, the plane seems to been hi-jacked and flown off to some bizarre, militant, martial arts state. Is it all right if I by-pass the Kung-Foo movie above and try to get back to the airport I thought we were flying into when I boarded ? (i.e. views on reincarnation) If so, I thought I would throw in a short section of the transcript I came across on reincarnation, given by a Non-Duality teacher, Wayne Liquorman. Previously I had been a Buddhist for over twenty years. After my original introduction to the idea of karma and reincarnation I had been so 'blown away' by this idea's apparent simplicity that made it possible for almost anyone to grasp it,... yet, whose subtlety of concept also combined an extraordinary ability to answer 'logically', all the existential questions that I had been unable to satisfy at the time, (I was in my late twenties). Time flowed by. I eventually found myself unable to make further personal connection with the form that the Tibetan Buddhist group which I had been drawn to, had evolved into in the West. There seemed huge gaps between what was preached, and what was practiced. (Does this sound a familiar story to anyone ?). I found myself once again looking for answers 'outside the box',.... that same secure box of Buddhist cosmology which I had once believed held all the answers one could possibly wish for. The way the plot developed then, for me, was that I was swept off my feet again, but this time by the sweet, pure logic seductions of Non-Duality teachings. At first their take on certain ideas like Karma and reincarnation, (which I had once believed impregnable in their perfection),.... hit me like the full body blow of blasphemy would a devout 'Born Again Christian'. Gradually, I got over this hurdle of apparent blasphemy and became more able to hear what was being said without all my unsuspected emotional baggage flying up in arm-flapping protest. Anyway, I'll throw the transcript in here now, just to see if it holds any relevance or interest to anyone on this forum : * * {Q} : Can we talk a bit about reincarnation ? {Wayne} : Okay. It’s fine with me. {Q} : I keep hearing different comments on that subject, and somebody mentioned that you had said there is no such thing as reincarnation. {Wayne} : I’ve been misquoted AGAIN ! (Laughter) No, what I said is, that there is no one to reincarnate. There is no separate individual that reincarnates; because there is no separate individual who was incarnated in the first place. So, if you’re not incarnated in the first place, it is very difficult for you to RE-incarnate. All there is is Consciousness, which expresses through these myriad forms. These myriad forms are created and destroyed in incredibly rapid succession, and in amazing diversity. So you can say that this Consciousness incarnates and reincarnates, and reincarnates, and reincarnates… and every instant it is doing that. A thousand fold, a million fold; not only in human form, but in forms of all kinds of objects, both sentient and not. {Q} : What about Samsara and, you know, getting off the wheel ? Is that just a concept ? {Wayne} : Yes. And if it appeals to you, fine, because what I just said to you was also just a concept. That description is conceptual, a pointer towards ‘That Which Is’. Now, the pointer that I like the most, personally, is Ramesh’s description of the Universe. He wrote : “The Universe is uncaused, like a net of jewels in which each is only the reflection of all the others, in a fantastic interrelated harmony without end.” I’ll repeat that, because I like it so much. (laughter) The universe is uncaused, Like a net of jewels In which each – each jewel – Is only the reflection Of all the others. Nothing has any independent existence. Each is only the reflection of everything else,… In a fantastic interrelated harmony Without end. Which is a very poetic and wonderful and beautiful way of saying : “It Is.” {Q} : So, could you say that everything exists only as relationship ? {Wayne} : Yes. You could certainly put it that way.

“Why me? -That is a very Earthling question to ask, Mr. Pilgrim. Why you? Why us for that matter? Why anything? Because this moment simply is. Have you ever seen bugs trapped in amber? -Yes. -Well, here we are, Mr. Pilgrim, trapped in the amber of this moment. There is no why." Kurt Vonnegut

GRANTED : Your garden blooms , blossoms and thrives like it has never done before. Just as the first of the bumper crops are getting ready to harvest, your gums start to ache in a most disturbing way. A visit to your dentist and you find that you have a rare gum disease that even the wisdom contained in the 2,200 replies to Yoda's "Tooth Regeneration" post could not heal. The only choice is to have all your teeth out and a full set of dentures. You won't be able to eat anything except canned soup for the next 3 months till everything has settled in. I wish for full and complete Enlightenment. Each of these other wishes all have major flies in their ointment !! .

. Watching the fascinating interplay on this forum between an extraordinary range of personalities and our various interests, I sometimes find myself wondering about the other side of this coin,... what it is that we all share ? What commonality brings us each here and keeps us coming back for more ? The tentative answer that pops up in my mind is that we are all bitten by the compulsion to seek for spiritual answers in order to ease our particular brand of suffering. If we were contented with our life and happy with what we seem to be at this moment,... then we simply wouldn't be here. The returns for the phenomenal amount of time and effort we spend in practice and self-discipline, would be far more easily attained by the uncomplicated enjoyment of whatever our moment-to-moment existence brought us. Now I know that spiritual seeking, (at least amongst seekers themselves), certainly has the kudos as the undisputed champion of 'worthwhile human activities'. But, I find myself questioning whether there is really any more to spiritual seeking than an attempt to escape from suffering ? Are prayers like the one we used to chant somewhere within all the pujas when I was Buddhist, "May I become a Buddha for the benefit of all",....are these perhaps not just attempts to convince ourself that we are altruistic dharma warriors battling the powers of delusion for the sake of all living beings ? Spiritual Batmen and Robins,... whereas, in reality we are merely malcontents frustrated by living within the limitations of whatever form our life has put us, (a discontent fueled by simultaneous dreams of being free forever of EVERY limitation) ? So, can I ask for possible clarifying thoughts from Tao Bums here,... "Is this spiritual seeking that we are all bitten with, simply driven by the self-centered desire to escape from our own personal suffering ? Or is there more to it than this ?" ThisLife .

I found the points you raise very thought-provoking. Particularly your ending statement that "the irony is that the search seems to be the only thing standing in the way of the answer". I think you've homed in onto a point of logic which is almost on the outermost boundary separating this realm of rational, dualistic thought,... from the Holy Grail of Enlightenment we all seek on the other side. However, unlike the usual boundaries we are familiar with in the mundane world,... I don't believe that these two realms actually touch. I think they are more like the boundary between life and death. You're in either one place or the other. (And by that, I mean the 'essence' of what we truly are. Clearly the body mechanisms of sages after Enlightenment continue to live and function no differently than those of the rest of us foot soldiers and seekers after spiritual fortune). I came across a slightly different take from yours on this same topic. Perhaps it may stimulate something in your own searching : "Enlightenment is not the presence of the understanding that there is no one: it is the complete removal of that which could have this understanding. We talk about enlightenment as if something happens. The ultimate understanding is that nothing happened. Everything is as it always has been: part of an incredible tapestry of Presence." ThisLife .

Another perfectly expressed key truth. I know what you're saying is true, but only through the workings of logic. All these spiritual paths which exist world-wide, would not exist if there was no actual experience to back them up. One of my deepest regrets is that I have so far never myself experienced any of these "certain moments", as you call them,... despite being utterly convinced for the greatest part of my life that these windows do occur. I have had some wonderful drug -induced experiences, (one of which being so strong and clear that it may well have been a glimpse through),... but drugs are unfortunately an unreliable friend that I just don't wish to use any more. They're more like a dream than reality, and only diminish one's faculties for continuing the search in the 'straight realm'. The sadness I find is that living the straight life, there's just no more 'highs'. Just a lot of turning over tentative chains of logic in an attempt to understand this existence we are all part of. Being locked into 'mental detective work' has all the life thrillls of an 80 year old jigsaw puzzle addict in an old folks' home. I long for at least a glimpse through one of those windows that so many others have undoubtedly seen through. Just some encouragement to keep one picking up the next piece. ThisLife .

Your reply strikes me as a flawlessly precise and concise rendering of a key factor to understanding the great benefits of this forum, and why we all keep hanging around here. Thank you for reminding me of this fundamental truth. My mind being structured the way it is, it just wouldn't have thought along those lines on its own without being offered an insight by someone like yourself, whose mind is structured to think down different pathways. .

Dear MTS, I think that it's too much fruit cake you've been eating, mate. You're starting to sound like one yourself. A little more balanced diet might help you understand the hidden message deep within Wayfarer's post above. ThisLife .

This does seem to raise the rather obvious question that , if this was true, then over the last few hundred years the rice eaters of Asia should have been amongst the wealthiest of the world's inhabitants. Us sad potato eaters in the West should have been comparatively impoverished. Could one's preference for rice and its supposed equation to wealth simply be yet another example of self-congratulation and wishful thinking ??? (Two human qualities shared universally,... by potato eaters as well !) ThisLife .

. Thank you all very much for a really wonderful range of replies. Reading through each of them separately, then again to get a feeling for how, despite their obvious differences, their individual flavours all work together to make the broth what it is,.... somehow was more helpful to me than simply hearing one perfectly worded answer. The wide diversity of the replies reminded me of something I often lose sight of. Because I spend so much time thinking about questions like this on my own, and since a person generally tends to follow only one line of beliefs, it's very easy to fall into the trap of imagining that the answer to any question, (such as the one I raised here), is also one-tracked. Seeing such a wide range of views on the same stimulus from people with whom I share quite an overlap in interests, helps very much to 'loosen' me up. My Western and somewhat academic upbringing has got me so accustomed to the idea of approaching everything as a struggle both to comprehend and to attain,... that I tend to approach spiritual questions the same way. The sincerity and diversity of all your replies marrying together invites me to consider that perhaps spiritual searches are best entered into by 'letting go' of excess baggage, rather than in trying to find the perfect rucksack. Thank you all, ThisLife .

Since you've given up on the Daily Mail you might consider slumming it intellectually for a while in the pages of The Sun. Here's a strikingly similar story they printed recently. Personally, I prefer the overall flavour of the Sun's journalism : Yesterday an estate agent in Lancaster parked his brand new Porsche in front of the office to show it off to his colleagues. As he was getting out of the car, a truck came speeding along too close to the kerb and smashed off his door before speeding off. More than a little distraught, the estate agent grabbed his mobile and called the police. Five minutes later, the police arrived. Before the policeman had a chance to ask any questions, the estate agent started screaming hysterically: "My Porsche, my beautiful silver Porsche is ruined, it'll simply never be the same again!" After the estate agent had finally finished his rant, the policeman shook his head in disgust: "I can't believe how materialistic you bloody estate agents are. You lot are so focused on your possessions that you don't notice anything else in your life." "How can you say such a thing at a time like this?", snapped the estate agent. The policeman replied, "Didn't you realise that your right arm was torn off when the truck hit you?" The estate agent looks down in absolute horror.......... "F***ING HELL!!!!!! he screams... "WHERE'S MY ROLEX !! ????" .

Dear Bruce, Thank you very much again for the connection. It makes such a difference for me to feel that there is someone out there with whom a living understanding is happening. Otherwise, it just feels like spending so much time with all these kinds of thoughts turning over in my head is simply a waste of my time and life. Yet, I really question what power I have to stop thinking about them. It seems much of the time that my thoughts are 'thinking me', rather than the more conventional view of it being the other way around. Much of the afternoon I've still been trying to find that fly buzzing around in those thoughts above. Every time I think I've silenced him,.... the slight sound of discord slowly starts to become audible once again. It was my closing remark this time,.... how reversing the subject and object changed everything that came after. It turns out that was actually a question, not a statement. Because, "What did it actually change ?" The idea eventually popped up that, if "The Tao was Lao Tzu",.... then by exactly that reasoning, "Myself, you,.... and every living being,... is not one bit different than Lao Tzu ! This whole incredible interplay of existence,... is just the Tao functioning through each one of us !" I know that sounds like just a Ho-Hum standard re-phrasing of basic Taoism. But so often I've found that because I can intellectually grasp a concept I delude myself into thinking that I 'know' it. I think what that process actually does is close a 'water-tight door' between myself and real knowing until something nudges me to re-examine some of those old hackneyed truths that I thought I knew. To my surprise, when I exhumed this old mental cadaver, what it said this time round was, "There is no need whatsoever for all this striving to purify, discipline, or make yourself a worthy vehicle through either thinking or engaging in some exotic practice in order to merge with the Tao. The Tao is already acting through us all with absolute perfection right now. It always has done, and always will do. Since the Tao is by definition, EVERYTHING,... then it could only be this way. All this suffering because of the appearance of, and conviction of the truth of, our separation from the Source,... is just a notion. It's like a form of 'Divine Hypnosis' that almost all humans are under." Anyway, those thoughts for quite a while, did bring me a very noticeable relief. I felt like a donkey that unexpectedly found itself relieved of a lot of the weight I had been staggering around with for so long that I thought this weight in my head was simply part of the inescapable admission price for existence. Anyway,... I've just had a call for dinner so had better dash. Maybe roast chicken will free me from this buzzing bee in my bonnet. ThisLife .

I found the points you make very interesting,... virtually matching the questions I now find myself trying to understand at the core of my own practice. Your concluding paragraph above I found particularly resonating,... except for a small 'buzzing', like a fly somewhere in a large room. That unsettling note just wouldn't go away the more I thought about what you were saying. Finally it came to me. At first I thought, 'Yes !! That's it',... "Lao Tzu didn't follow the Tao,... he was the Tao". I liked that better. For a while. But, you know,... though the buzzing was diminished, it still was not gone. Just now, I think I finally spotted the fly. It comes from the nature of our dualistic mind which, (since it's the only one we have been provided with), we have no choice but to think through. Our mind can only operate via a subject / object relationship. "We", are always the subject, the "centre". Everything else in the universe, including the most abstract and ethereal of philosophies, are all "objects". All revolve at a distance around us. So, when the fly finally stopped buzzing, this is what I was left with : It wasn't that 'Lao Tzu was the Tao',...."The Tao was Lao Tzu !!" A seemingly small change in word order, but correcting this inadvertent reversal of subject and object, was to trace back and set right the very first error we make in our attempts to follow this noble path. And that change makes 'everything else' that comes afterwards completely different. ThisLife .

Dear Mikaelz, I appreciate your connection in this discussion, as I think it points perfectly to what I feel is the answer to the question you raised. Yes, I very definitely feel that we are helping each other with all this speculating over spiritual questions,... BUT, probably not in the way we think. I venture to say that I'm sure, in our heart -of-hearts, that we all wish the discussions we have here and whatever practice we do had a direct and causal connection to Enlightenment, (or whatever term we wish to call our spiritual goal). In the way one's high school studies may well lead to a university degree. Personally, I find myself questioning whether there is any connection at all. And, that is NOT to say that those who practice with sincerity and diligence, don't attain their goal. My feeling is that we are all simply expressions of Tao, or expressions of Consciousness,.... and that it is Consciousness that makes EVERYTHING happen. Sequential and causative practice, method, no-method,..... these are all concepts we humans who are still trapped in our dualistic minds develop , (and afterwards believe in), in our attempts to explain the unexplainable. Because the Tao is beyond comprehension by a dualistic mind,.... and it most certainly is not limited by any of the list of 'spiritual concepts' I have just listed, nor by any of the other myriad concepts and ideas we discuss on this forum. We were all born with, and carry on with, a dualistic mind. It is not our fault. The Tao simply created us that way for whatever un-knowable reasons, (or non-reasons), it did. So, on the level of simply dealing with "what is",... a phenomenon which frequently occurs is people who are driven by a thirst for answers to spiritual questions. I think that everyone who is drawn to spend their time here on this forum, has that thirst to some degree or other. Another quality of a dualistic human being is the need for social interaction with like-minded people. That's a world-wide phenomena that manifests as supporters for football teams, sewing circles, Rotary Clubs, Bungee Jumpers Anonymous, Robin Reliant Owners Clubs, etc, etc. I think that this is where the value of this forum and this type of discussion lies. And that is NOT to belittle the importance of this discussion in the slightest. To maintain a healthy human life we all need a supply of the clearly obvious necessities,"food, water, air, warmth and shelter",.... but there are also some invisible requisites which are equally vital for our healthy functioning. Among these, "social interaction and a feeling of connection with like-minded people", I feel is Number One. People driven by this spiritual thirst are dotted about at random throughout world societies. Here in the West, with our tolerance, freedoms and wide acess to information, this seeking often takes many different forms such as an attraction to Taoism, Buddhism, etc. These are often not catered to socially in small communities or in sections of the country where neighbouring communities may be quite conservative in their beliefs. Many seekers actively dislike social organisations,.... yet still value the feeling of having connection to one or two people of a like mind. Whatever the cause of our isolation, the wonderful advent of this computer age now allows people like ourselves to connect with others plagued by the same thirst,.... and simply the talking, the putting our ideas into words, (I know for myself), is of inestimable relief. At the risk of perhaps offending a few, I'd say that our discussions here, do perform the function of what you, quite aptly described as "speculative masturbation". I know masturbation is one of those intensely private experiences which is usually best not talked about except in the realm of jokes. But it is, nevertheless, globally a very common and normal human activity. It does have the beneficial function of release from from internal desires, pressures, longings , which, if left unassuaged, would just otherwise turn to suffering or take some nastier outlet. Even when it simply relieves boredom I feel that this socially-tabooed activity is still equally valid. Phenomena occur for reasons. Masturbation, and Taoist forums on the internet are no different in that respect. Whether either leads to Enlightenment. is beyond my knowing. But I do know that I am sitting here now, and I know without any doubt, that being able to meet and communicate with like minds on this forum has been a great relief, release, and reassurance for me. Where I am right now, I need this connection, and I am so very grateful to whoever started this forum for creating a place where we can all be part of this together,... and for everyone who contributes here,.... in whatever shape, form or disguise we all come in. ThisLife .

Actually, the tree doesn't look for its own true nature at all. I think that's the real essence of this analogy .

In theory what you suggest sounds the only practical solution to a perennial problem. However, what I think you've overlooked is one of the oldest unspoken spiritual truths there is : "Those who know, don't talk,... and those who talk, don't know" So, if any of us are lucky enough to hit the spiritual jackpot, they'll probably just clam up, close off their membership to Tao Bums, and the rest of us will still be stuck here in the land of speculative masturbation, (as you so graphically describe it). I'm afraid this is part of the price we pay for being born a human being. We can only help each other out this side of the veil. ThisLife .

I agree with the point you were aking in your first two paragraphs. The story of a woman giving herself a Caesarian, (though interesting in itself),.... is stretching our credibility to suggest that the experience has close parallels to spiritual seeking in our current society. However, I find that your own final statement similarly bears very little resemblance to spiritual truth as I see it. It praises one extreme and spurns its opposite as false and deluded. To me, that process is like looking at the Yin-Yang symbol and extolling the perfection of the black parts. How much better and more relevant it would be without the white parts !! I'm sure you see what I mean. I believe Buddha is quoted as saying something like, "The truth always lies in the Middle Way". From my own personal experience, I followed a Buddhist path with a certified Tibetan master for almost twenty years. The things I saw going on in that organisation amongst many of the supposedly 'most advanced' practitioners,... really almost beggars belief. Believe me, there are NO GUARANTEES with a master, just as there are equally none trying on your own. I think that the best advice on following the spiritual path that I've ever seen is posted here by Sloppy Zhang on a neighbouring thread : "To be honest.... I don't really know I started out with pretty selfish and lame reasons, but those have mostly fallen away.... But I keep walking " Perhaps, if we, ourselves, gradually let go of extremes and just keep on walking, this whole mystery of our existence will simply dissipate like a dream does to a relaxed and contented mind. ThisLife .

I absolutely love this reply. Bruce's stimulus for this thread was such an interesting question for every person caught up in this bizarre phenomena of 'spiritual seeking'. But for clarity, brevity, and the unsurpassable virtue of honesty,... I think the way you expressed 'a life on the path', is just about as close to truth as our inevitable limitation of words can come. Personally, I am someone who very often has a great deal of difficulty controlling my flow of excess verbiage,... while your manner of perfectly catching the essence of what we really 'know' about why we are following our spiritual path I find as refreshing and stimulating as a Zen poem. Thank you,.... and good luck with your search ! ThisLife .

I too believe that simple and down to earth suggestions are 'often' the best. Yet, look at the example you gave in support of this : All religions are united by,...."A belief that they can make ones life better." Virtually every war in the world, most of the murders, robberies , rapes and every sort of crime against other living beings,.... has been committed by someone believing that it would make their life "better". This is really a self-evident truth. It all depends on who is defining that word, "better". In the end, words mean nothing. It is one's heart and one's actions that the truth of a person, or a religion lie. Faith in words puts a person squarely into that deceptive domain of lawyers and politicians. I think it's best to have a profound distrust of verbal truths and anyone that tries to sell them. ThisLife .

I just stumbled onto this thread a few minutes ago. Like so many things in my life,... I somehow missed the boat the first time round. Nevertheless, I guess being asleep at the switch does have it's advantages sometimes,....I got to read eighteen truly fascinating replies. That experience I found not only reassuring through reading the sincerity with which the contributors' stories were put,...but also refreshing in making me aware of what a wide range of paths and reasons for practice are out there. I have a real problem living in my own head too much of the time. Not having a 'sangha' to share my religious yearnings with at present, plus with my current employment situation, I have too much spare time on my hands. The combination can send me into periodic spirals of introspection as I get too focussed on navel-gazing my own spiritual path. So, why do I follow the path I'm on ? Hmmmm,... It seems to me that I have no choice. I think this is just the way I was built. Almost none of my friends are interested in this kind of stuff, and I can't say that it has brought me any more happiness and fulfillment than many of the people I see around me. I'm actually quite amazed how many good and kind-hearted people I keep seeing around me who have no interest whatsoever in spiritual enquiry. This I find particularly insightful,.... because I've fairly recently come out of a twenty year involvement with a Buddhist organisation here in England. We were taught, (and somehow came to internalise), that we just happened to have hit the spiritual jackpot ! Through merit created in our previous lives, we had found the ONE TRUE PATH to liberation !! Yet, it still feels like a different form of 'awakening' when I come across more simple acts of kindness from a taxi driver or our village postman, than I ever saw in many of the long-time practitioners of Highest Yoga Tantra at our centre who were so convinced that they had found the fast track to Enlightenment, I believed the propaganda, too. Cults are a very insidious thing. I never in my wildest imaginations thought I would end up falling into one. But now, a year and a half down the road, the experience has left me with a revised and updated philosophy of life. Once the hurt feelings and wounded pride have thankfully subsided, I now see the whole thing as a seamless part of the same path. The Buddhism, the sequence of beliefs I held before it came along, and the philosophy I believe in now,.... all seem simply like different 'action scenes' in the same film strip. The film strip is my life. It's already sitting there in its entirety, in the can, but requires time to play it out. Right now there's a frame happening where I am sitting in a chair and hitting these keys on my computer keyboard. As usual, our over-large cat is purring happily on my lap as I type this. I can't say for certain what will happen in the next frame, but the faith I have gained from previous similar experiences leads me to believe that it may well be bed. I sometimes think this entire spiritual seeking phenomenon is simply a problem unique to human beings, caused by the unhappy method human minds are hard-wired. We almost universally have a sense of 'separation' from Life and all other living beings,... and are trying every method under the sun to try and find our way back to Unity with God, Life, the Cosmos, Nirvana, the Tao, etc. Even the practice of 'no-method' often requires sitting rigidly on a cushion staring at a wall for, sometimes, half a lifetime ! You couldn't find an animal on this planet who would engage in such self-torture for the dubious goal of realising where he already is. I don't think my cat suffers from this problem. He's got a much better hard-wiring system. Maybe that sense of 'separation' is simply an illusion, and all this spiritual seeking is like a fish swimming around in the ocean searching for that magical elixir of life he's heard so much about but never been able to 'see', called,..."water". Nevertheless,... here I sit, as much involved in that pursuit as anyone else in this vast, (but logically incomprehensible) congregation who are compelled to follow the inner demands of this spiritual quest. In answer to the question which started off this thread, that seems to me the reason that I do what I do. It's simply the way I'm hard-wired. ThisLife .

(1) A method which promises to free people from suffering, (backed up with plausible logical proofs or testimony),... if they follow the path prescribed by Religion X (2) A guarantee of living in eternal happiness and fulfillment, (backed up with plausible proofs or testimony)... if they follow the path prescribed by Religion X ThisLife .

The questions you have asked here are of a sort that makes this thread more like an exercise in peeling off layers of an onion,...only, unlike our standard 'under-kitchen counter' variety, this is one whose size we are completely unable to know. You start off saying that we should critically examine where our faith comes from,.. then point out that in the dictionary definitions of faith I gave, the reverse order actually works better. You then gave a carefully thought-out, two paragraph explanation of what you feel is the best way for individuals who are trying to find answers to spiritual questions, to make the most effective use of this quality we call 'faith'. Oddly enough,...after carefully reading your explanation, I feel that you, too, have made a reversal of order. In this case, it is the content of your two paragraphs which I think should be reversed. Our normal human inclinations are almost always most comfortable with the standard order of : (1) we find some question going round in our head. To get peace of mind again, we set about trying to resolve it. Then, if we are lucky, (or our question is an easy one),...(2) we find an answer. The resulting peace lasts till the next question, whereupon the process starts over again. However, I think that the process with spiritual seeking actually progresses in the reverse order to that. We start off with something we may have taken as 'understood', (perhaps throughout our entire life up to this point),... then, something unexpectedly triggers a surprising 'doubt'. "Do I really know what this word, 'faith' means ??", for example. If we truly are spiritual seekers with a burning desire to know,... then the final stage of this seeking is finding ourself unexpectedly 'questioning', after having started off from something we thought was 'known'. It is for this reason that I feel your order is reversed. In the concluding paragraph of your development of ideas about faith, you say, " It seems that we examine what evidence is available, think for ourselves about the reasonability of it, then decide" Yet, in the preceding paragraph, you make the strong point, "The question we have to ask ourselves is, how do we arrive at this conclusion". Or, in other words,... "How do we decide ?" Your initial question regarding the nature of 'faith',... has now removed a layer of the onion,... only to leave you with an unexpected new question, "How do we decide ?" The way we normally think of the term. 'deciding', is that there is some part of ourselves which is capable of standing apart from two or more possibilities, weighing up the relative merits of each, and then choosing one or the other. The assumption which is presumed unecessary to say, is that we have the free will to choose whichever one of the possibilities we want. What my own path has led me to question now, is whether we have any choice whatsoever regarding the decision which gets made. Or is there simply the appearance of a choice being made, due to our inability to comprehend the almost limitless complexity of this body-mind apparatus we so flippantly imagine that we 'know' ? Our self. Our familiarity with computers can help understand this idea, (even though I, personally, am extremely weak in that domain). Everyone knows that computers are capable of such extraordinary feats of 'number crunching',... that the ones at Nassau can make the gazillion calculations necessary to land a space probe on Mars. Unbelievable, really !! Well,... if we know that that amount of data can be stored and constantly updated to produce a desired action,.... imagine that we used this computing power to register every piece of genetic information that existed regarding individual "X" prior to his birth. Then, from the moment he arrived into this world, this same computer entered into it's hard drive every single environmental interaction that X experienced. Every minute shade of experience up till a point in time, "T", where he had to make a decision,... say a dinner choice between 'Fish and Chips' or 'Tandoori Chicken'. Now, for the computer, there is no question involved,... because through having constantly updated the totality of X's genetics and life experiences, it knows that X will have the Tandoori Chicken. Because, at every moment of our life, presented with an array of possible actions, the updated totality of our genetics and our experiences can and will 'choose' only one action. THE ONE THAT HAPPENS !! Other than the constantly evolving totality of our genetics and life experiences,... there is NO ONE else here !!! We are nothing other than that ! But, not having a Nassau computer's ability, or access to all that information,... we simply say, "I've decided to have Tandori Chicken". So, to finish off another of my excessively long-winded ramblings,.... I think that if you want to understand how to make best use of 'faith',....before that, I think you first needs to closely examine this whole previous matter of how we 'decide' anything. ThisLife .

I think this is a very interesting question that you have raised here,... "What is faith ?" It kind of stopped me in my tracks because it's another one of those terms that we use so much that we can easily forget that we've never really been clear within our own mind what the word means to us. Chambers Dictionary is always a good place to start for an exercise in clarity like this : Faith : (1) trust or confidence (2) belief in the statement of another Reasonable starters I guess. For myself, the word means an extrapolation from some information or situation,... and projecting what that information seems to suggest into an 'unknown' situation. For me, there is always the element of hoping something will carry on holding true into some future, unknown situation. Primarily, faith is the state of NOT KNOWING, but hoping something will be true. Whether our hopes are based on deep and profound intellectual processes,... or simply having a lucky rabbit's foot and touching wood at the same time, the act of 'having faith' , in either situation, to me is identical. The idea you expressed about 'good' or 'bad', I can't see how it applies. I've never heard anyone refer to faith using those adjectives,... any more than one talks about a good or bad rock. ThisLife .