Dreamingawake

Well first you've latched onto one man who might be a loon to discredit everyone who he might agree with on one issue. Then you keep using the word 'denier' which aside from having the connotation of being already proven wrong (which would be an outright lie) is also a weasel-word often used to unconsciously associate someone with the 'Holocaust deniers' to further discredit and impugn their reputation without seeming to attack them directly. Then your last sentence there is strung together to imply that YOUR view is based on science while any other view is based on anything but. So in summery: STRAW MAN -> WEASLE-WORD -> INNUENDO Wrapped in AD HOMINEM You accuse others of using NLP maliciously while you yourself use it (and huge logical fallacies I might add) to attack and malign people who disagree with a point of view you seem unable to explain or debate.

Me too! I think it's been a long while since I saw a really good one. Any recommendations from the bums?

lol then why whine so much?

Actually neither ralis or I have attempted to make any points relevant to the debate so we're about even You've tried but you don't seem to be actually listening to the other sides points and that costs you big time when you try to make your own arguments because you can't really counter what you never actually heard. There aren't enough facts available to prove one side or the other totally right so now it's just a matter of debate skills edit: hold that thought! I have to go grab the popcorn

Actually I've listened to interviews with some of the foremost experts on the subject who admit wholeheartedly that there isn't enough solid evidence to prove either way. The subject is almost ENTIRELY political. Even if it was pure science it would still have nothing to do with spiritual cultivation and so it would STILL have been moved to the appropriate area. Steve didn't punish you, he only moved it to the proper forum which might actually help you. People looking for off topic debates are going to be looking in the of topic forum and your thread might be just the entertainment they're looking for

Ralis I hate to break it to you but you haven't contributed a single argument to the entire thread. My first post in here was just joking around but every post you've written in here has contained only ad hominem attacks and weasle-words. It seems your only (very pointed) goal is to shut up anyone who disagrees with your point of view not by reasoned debate but merely by discouraging them from even speaking. Honestly I think you can do better.

And ad hominem attacks don't actually prove anything

Well I WAS going to make what would of ended up being a rather lengthy post about the obvious fallacies in the global warming/climate change scare/scam but a quick scan of the posts shows that I've already been soundly beaten to the punch by a number of apparently very thorough individuals. Instead I'd like to offer a round of virtual high-fives and pats on the back :D :D

I generally only drink liquor on social occasions or a decent micro-brew whenever the mood strikes me For me that seems to work out to maybe a couple beers maybe once a week and a few drinks maybe twice a month.

Thanks a bunch!

Great! thanks a bunch

Sorry this is slightly off topic but where can I find this new Ebook from Kostas? Forum/google searches didn't turn up anything

Went through something similar several years ago. Feels good doesn't it? Like stepping out of a stuffy room and into the fresh air outside

I suspect that for the most part, I'm in the 'yes' camp. Things that happen to us are very strongly influenced by our own actions and trying to say we don't 'deserve' (insert whatever here) is just an attempt to avoid responsibility for the consequences of our actions. Sadly that also deprives you of the power to change you're circumstances for the better. If you decide you're fat because of genetics then you're just screwed, but if you decide you're fat because you live off of Mcdonalds and snickers bars then suddenly you have the power to lose all that extra weight. If you walk into a starbucks and pay $8 for a coffee then you 'deserve' to pay way too much for your coffee. If you walk into a dark alley in a ghetto in the middle of the night and get mugged then yes you probably 'deserved' that too. If you treat your girlfriend well and make her genuinely happy to be with you then you 'deserve' your girlfriend. If you don't watch where you're walking then you 'deserve' the lump on your head when you walk into a wall or pole. If you show up late to work everyday then you 'deserve' to lose your job. If you're a douchebag all the time then you 'deserve' to not have any friends or you 'deserve' the 'friends' you do have. If I rob a liquor store tomorrow, get pummeled by the cops and get sent to prison then I 'deserve' my new 'boyfriend' If I pay for a really good lawyer and avoid prison then I 'deserve' my freedom. There are things I'm not sure about. I'm not enlightened and don't see through the mysteries of the universe so I can't tell you whether a child diagnosed with leukemia was an axe murderer in his last life. I won't even speculate on how something so sad could happen, but I will tell you that if you trip and fall down the stairs tomorrow, you 'deserve' that broken leg. Hopefully you learn to pay attention to your footing the next time around though.

If anyone has a problem with another poster and they really can't resolve or handle it there is always the option of adding them to your ignore list. Suddenly it's like they're not even in the forum. You can do it in way less time than it takes type angry, insulting rants. Personally I've never used it but then I don't really care if someone disagrees with me or thinks they're much smarter than me. That's usually when conversations get much more interesting

VERY well said

LOL I should work more on the clarity of my communication. I don't mean to say that pain = progress. Only that it's common enough that it should be expected. If the path of cultivation were easy then everyone would do it. Expecting it to be all rainbows and kittens is a pipe dream. The truth is that no matter how many great moments, pretty scenery or mind-blowing realizations come along there are still plenty of humps in the road. If there weren't then there'd be no need for cultivation in the first place. You could think of it like rock climbing. The higher you climb, the better the view but you still have to climb . It's easy for the master who's climbed a hundred mountains to say, "oh yeah this is an easy mountain. It's a very simple ascent to the top and the view is great! You'll have fun the whole way up!" He's climbing MUCH BIGGER mountains so it looks that way to him. No matter what mountain your on though, it's you're first time up this particular rock. You don't know that half way up the wall gets a little crumbly and your fingers aren't quite strong enough to grip those tiny handholds near the top. Just like you don't know that you have nasty blocks in your spine and you're in for months of crippling pain while your body fixes itself. You're going to slip and every time you do, you're going to scrape a knee or bust a knuckle. The view at the top IS worth it (I hope ) but people should realize that nothing worthwhile is all that easy. You have to be willing to put in the effort and stick with it and that's something you can't buy. No guru, master or teacher can give that to you. It comes from within and you have to dig deep keep going forward if you want to achieve anything.

There is no book on the planet I would like to read more! How can such an influential and powerful book not be available in more languages? English for instance?

I think you guys are on to something. Every person I have known, met, talked to or read about who accomplished anything significant along this path had a long hard road to get there. This has bourn itself out continually in my own experience as well. If the method itself doesn't hurt then often the body hurts while adjusting or growing. In all things you have to exceed your limits to grow but there is a price to pay. If you lift more weight than your muscles can handle they'll hurt and if you run more than you're used to your joints ache. If you conduct more energy than your body/nervous system can stand there're plenty of (very uncomfortable) side effects for that and we've all seen people on this forum who's mental and emotional states have deteriorated because of meditation. They weren't ready, couldn't handle, practiced too much or used a method unsuitable to them. This isn't to say that you can't have a 'smooth ride' but even the people who have claimed a smooth ride had some or many rough spots which they learned a great deal from. People who think it's all sunshine and daisies are, I suspect, the same ones who think they can pay a guru/teacher/master/saint/whatever and get the results they want just that easy. They're always looking for that magic pill that will instantly give them the body they want, make them independently wealthy or make them neo. When they don't get it they think the magic pill was a sham and go try to find another one The real secret of the universe is, hold on..... ----------SPOILER ALERT-------------------- There's no such thing as a free lunch!! If you want something then you have to work for it and the higher/further your goals the harder you have to work. If a teacher claims to be able to make you a demi-god without damn near killing you in the process then he's probably blowing smoke up your ass I don't think most teachers do it on purpose though ( I hope not anyway). If you have good methods and the guy with all the bells and whistles next door is a scam artist then you kind of have to dress it up just to compete... Or find another way to pay your mortgage

I don't have the book but I have some acupuncture references and was hoping you knew the point?

Which point? Now you've got me curious so I wanna look it up too

In systema there are many exercises of moving the breath to and through different parts of the body and using the breath to move the body. For instance the three basic exercises are pushups, situps and squats and in all three they stress keeping the body totally relaxed and without tension. Instead you're supposed to let the breath move the body. They also use a 'wave punch' wherein you get a feeling of flow through your body/limb which you direct and extend beyond the strike. This is done with very little 'physical' effort and if you try to 'muscle' it then it doesn't work at all. When you do it right there are two distinct sensations. First you feel the actual impact. Then a moment or two later you feel a small explosion several inches in. This seems very much like chi development and IMA to me but I could be wrong. Hope that helps

There are some who can do it but still don't seem too impressed with it. I know Santi used to do it a lot but doesn't seem to care for it and I have friends out here in the offline world who can do it quite easily but never bother with it. Personally, I figure it's just another tool. Some people prefer running to stay healthy and I like heavy weights. My resting heart rate is usually in the low 60s so obviously it's working just fine for me. I figure that some practices suit some people better than others. If full lotus suits you then enjoy! If it doesn't then try not to worry about it and find what works for you Just my opinion so take with a grain of salt.

Maybe the lack of buddahs, and massiahs is just a sign of how different the times are? Li Hongzhi claims to be a massiah if I remember correctly but everyone who doesn't practice Falun Gong seems to think he's a crackpot (just an observation, not a criticism). The guy who started the mormons claimed to be a prophet and people listened to him too. But if he had come today I suspect he would have simply been placed in a rubber room with some strong medication.. Abraham was all set to kill his own son and Jephthah (judges 11) actually did slaughter his only daughter. Both of these were considered great and holy men yet I've seen several people in the news who killed there own children claiming 'God' told them to do it and they were thrown in prison. Now they are condemned by the very same people who still revere Abraham and Jephthah to this day.