rex

Todd, I haven't read your latest message on this thread so this is just a response to the first two. What you say about alchemy as attitude resonates with me though this attitude as expressed through the YES can be applied to any endeavour and not just alchemy in its more specific spiritual art and science sense. The moment we ascent to the YES we acknowledge the possibility of other ways of being. That the process can start before conscious awareness implies that some other aspect of our being is calling for change. The actual source of this YES is an intriguing question and one that different approaches answer in their own way. I probably fall into he camp who experiences the YES and sees it's origin as the true source of power, but interprets it through the filter of teachings already received. Following through the YES calls for trust in the source and the process itself, so part of the aesthetic sensibility is openness and courage, so the energy locked up in limiting habitual patterns can find a more spontaneous expression suited to prevailing conditions. The difference is between conscious active participation and unconscious passive participation. Conscious active participation involves method and wisdom for particular finite results, mediation (NB not meditation) and expansion of the boundaries of the self.

I've been wondering this too and how just doing certain postures activates this specfic type of energy that is not supposed to be qi or prana. Since there's transmission involved perhaps it's some sort of lineage energy and doing the form acts as a signal for beings connected with the lineage to work on you? Hence nothing really for the practitioner to do but the postures ...

I think alchemy is a particular aesthetic sensibility. It's an art, a science, and a metaphysics all rolled into one. To me it's about establishing the connection of the outer elements to the inner elements, and the inner elements to their true source and then following this connection back again to the outer. Of course I haven't established any of these connections.

Sorry! Changed my mind.

speur! yuro'e oen of teh ftify fvie.

Sheesh! That's harsh. He was the victim of abuse. Couldn't he have the gift restored?

Don't know if anyone has seen this site: http://www.expertvillage.com. It's full of instructional videos on all sorts of topics. Here's just one on gymnastic warm ups: http://www.expertvillage.com/videos/gymnas...ight-splits.htm

Shit! Won't even some sort of soul retrieval ceremony and practice help?

What a witch! (in the worst sense of the term). Eventually she'll go back to being her old miserable self and will have to do it to someone else again.

The Tibetans recognise that rites in themselves are nothing if they do not involve personal engagement so the Four Opponent Powers are built into the liturgies of purification. "Hinayana" just one of the 18 schools that focused on individual liberation. Mahayana focus is on universal liberation. The Tibetans are primarily Mahayana though Mahayana is built on the indispensable foundations of the Hinayana. The entire three yana system is integrated into the Tibetan traditions and is summed up as follows: Hinayana: do not harm Mahayana: cultivate a wealth of virtue Vajrayana: train and tame the mind

In retrospect that was a bit harsh - sorry - I momentarily forgot that I was on the taobums spiritual hackers forum and not on the orthodox e-sangha forum. Herein is the difficulty. You're asking if you can utilise practices from a tradition outside their original context. People within the tradition are bound to say no. But the bind is all they can say is that the masters of the living tradition say it is so - reliance on the teachers is sacrosanct. Others may say yes, but divorce the mechanics from the directly Buddhist stuff, or worse, just go the whole hog and ignore the traditions provisos. From reading your posts I seem to remember that you have already been taught some Taoist methods similar to the six yogas? If so, if you're seeking to use this experience, and supplement it with purely the physical mechanics of the first of the six yogas, and were seeking an informed opinion on this then I apologise for sticking my dogmatic oar in. If however you wanted to do the complete six yogas with Buddhist visualisation and stuff outside the tradition, then I see it as important to give the official view of the tradition based, arguably, on the experience of the lineage. Would you like me to quote from some Tibetan masters experienced in these matters? These quotes don't really go into the esoteric energetics so may easily be dismissed as dogmatic propaganda from those outside the tradition. Again I sympathize. That's because an integral part of the methodology involves a sacred bond - the samaya connection - between the teacher and the mandala of the deity that one has entered.

In the interests of brevity I won't quote from teachers and texts, though I will on request. The tail end of this thread is basically about this: They've got something I haven't got and I want it, and I want someone to tell me that I can take it on my own terms. Pero has been quite clear that you can't take it on your own terms, stating without obfuscation or hair splitting: The tantric and dzogchen traditions state explicitly that formal initiation/introduction from a living and realised lineage holder is required to practice in these traditions and use their methods - anything else just doesn't cut it. Of course with the published texts the cat is out the bag now and no one has to accept the traditions within their own terms of reference - but they do so at their own risk. No one with experience of the six yogas will write of their experiences on a public forum as they're bound under oath not to.

Yes this a source of controversy between different Buddhisms. The Tantric Buddhists hold that Buddha taught tantric methods to humans and non-humans as Cakrasamvara. Of course some Buddhisms don't even recognise Tantric Buddhism as being authentic Buddhism. The Tantric teachings are open to anyone who has the aspiration, karma, merit and natural affinity with the altrusitic wish for enlightenment. There's plenty of public opportunities to get initiation. It's not just a question of being taught some psycho-somatic techniques, it's also a question of relationship, trust and mutual committment.

This is just my interpretation of why initiation is considered essential in Tantric Buddhism. This is a rational and humanistic view that I have great sympathy for. However my sympathy is tempered by respect for the traditions that discovered these methods, and their chosen mode of dissemination. The tantric world is not rational and humanistic. Tantric methods were taught to the Mahasiddhas on a mystical level. In this respect an initiation/empowerment is a transfer of mystical energy, and an entry into a mandala - the source of the teachings - that automatically puts the initiate into a set of relationships with transpersonal energies. It is these transpersonal energies that set the ground rules of entry, and as Harry nicely sums up, “If they do not want you in their lineage, for whatever reasons that might be, you will not get in... seems to be logical at least...”. So the practice and permission is owned by the mandala which is the power behind a tradition. It’s difficult enough for committed Buddhists to get access to these methods; and as mentioned in an interesting FAQ on Kundalini and Tibetan Buddhism, the challenge is for the student to find access to them. Good luck!

The vajrayana tradition stresses that initiation is absolutely indispensible. The references Adam mentioned, Clear Light of Bliss and The Bliss of Inner Fire state this too. Separating the physical techniques from the underlying philosophy and deity practice may be possible, but I wouldn't do the deity practices, seed syllable visualisations and mantras without initiation.

God told me. Seriously though it was cheeky of me to impose my limited perspective on something I can't comprehend. Touche Pero!

The enlightened have more productive things to do then hang around internet forums.

Ignorance is one of the six root passions so it'll be conducive to non-meritorious karma. Not being aware socially or ecologically and insensitive to others would at the very least be lack of respect for others which is one of the twenty secondary passions, again, conducive to non-meritorious karma. The idea behind white intention/black act is to be able to lie, cheat, shout at people, even use violence etc. if it saves them or others from harm. Of course this needs discernment, spiritual maturity and ability to see the full consequences of one's actions. Needless to say these actions must be performed without the presence of the six root and twenty secondary passions. (The six passions are: concupiscent desire, anger, pride, ignorance, doubts or afflicted opinions, attachment to extreme views. The twenty secondary passions are: aggression, resentment, hypocrisy, malice, jealousy, miserliness, deception, concealment, conceit, violence, absence of shame, lack of respect for others, inertia, excitation, lack of faith, laziness, carelessness, forgetfulness, inattention or lack of examination and distraction. )

You can have spirituality without religion and religion without spirituality. I lack the acumen to go it alone so rely on the support of an established path.

The amazing and mysterious body - eh? Not too sure as Systema doesn't appear to recognise chi. Could be something like a Derren Brown hypnotic influence type of thing. There was a segment in one of his shows when he went to a boxing gym and made some of the boxers go all weak. He did this to some wing chun practitioners too.

Marvelous Lin! As to the question of not entering Nirvana until all other beings have entered first - surely you achieve complete, perfect and unsurpassed enlightenment first and then just don't disappear into Nirvana resting on your laurels?

Good topic Cameron, nice attachment Lin. These are some notes from a course I attended which may be of interest to some. If not, no worries, it was good revision typing out these edited highlights: Interdependence is the mechanism that binds all elements of existence, karma is the energy that puts it in action. Interdependence is like the interdependent mechanical parts of the samsaric car, karma is the fuel that allows it to run. Karma has two components: the intention that precedes an act and the karmic imprint or trace that is left in consciousness following the act that will produce a result in the future when conditions are right. The intention behind an act and its affect on the object determines whether karma is positive or negative: White intention/white act: positive White intention/black act: positive Black intention/white act: negative Black intention/black act: negative Positive karma originates from the eleven virtuous mental factors and the ten abstensions/virtues. Negative karma originates from the six root passions, the twenty secondary passions and the indulgence of the ten non-virtuous acts. A karmic path has four stages: 1) The basis: the object on which a karmic path can be accomplished e.g. a sentient being 2) Thought: comprised of three elements: - Identifying, the basis must be recognised without any mistake e.g. that particular being will be singled out. - Motivation the conscious desire to carry out an act. - The mental factor involved: from the range of positive and negative factors. 3) The action itself. 4) The outcome. When the four stages of karma are fulfilled then there are three types of effects: 1) The fully ripened result, e.g.in the case of negative karma rebirth in a lower realm. 2) The result similar to the cause has two elements - result similar to the cause in the action e.g. reborn killers will from a young age delight in killing. - result similar to the cause in the experience e.g. reborn killers dying at a young age in several successive lifetimes from having shortened the lives of others in past lives. 3) The result similar to the power: this conditions the environment and the circumstances of future lives e.g. being born in a war zone There are three types of karma depending on the results: - Meritorious karma that induces a favourable rebirth in one of the three upper realms. - Non-meritorious karma that induces an unfavourable rebirth in one of the three lower realms. - Stable karma leads to rebirth in the pure-form and formless god realms. All these karmas are conditioned by ignorance whose results do not escape samsara. Karma is said to be accumulated if one has the intention to carry it out. Karma is accomplished when the act has been carried out. Accumulation and accomplishment have four combinations: - Accumulated and accomplished karma: one has the desire to carry out an act and does it. - Accumulated karma that has not been accomplished: one has a desire to do something but doesn't. - Karma that has not been accumulated but has been accomplished: no desire to kill but still inadvertently kills. - Karma that is neither accumulated nor accomplished: one has no desire to kill, has inadvertently killed but immediately applied the four powers of purification. The power of a given karma depends on several factors: * The length of time between the moment the karmic imprint is registered in the consciousness and the moment when the right conditions are united for the result to manifest. Karma continuously increases over time. * The conjunction (complete or incomplete) of the four stages of the karmic path. * The object affected by karma: a karma will be more active and powerful if it is linked to a holy being, someone close, a bodhisattva or someone in great danger. * The frequency of the act: the cummulative repetition of karmas of the same sort reinforces them. * The intensity of the motivation: temporary irritation or stubborn hatred, momentary pity or authentic compassion ... * Absence or presence of opposite kinds of karmas: these can reduce, postpone or thwart the result. A karmic result can mature at three different times: this life; the next life; a subsequent life.

I'm with you here! I'm not with you here. It depends if the pacifism is based on weakness or a conscious courageous decision based on 'The View'. The former evokes my compassion, the latter my admiration. Now this is the theory though I can't live up to this: if one faces violence and death with equanimity and compassion this would burn up immense negative karma, so much so, that in future rebirths you may never face aggression again or you find self reborn in another place where violence simply doesn't exist. Of course this needs vision and courage but, personally, if I ever had face to serious violence and aggression I would be a coward and go into battle mode. This is a tricky one as I've formally taken a vow not to kill!!!

Unless of course they believe that in doing so they achieve something greater spiritually in the after death state. I think it would be great if there was some sort of practice that leads to a siddhi which makes it impossible for an act of violence to occur with a three mile radius of a practitioner.