steve

I agree, it is an apparent and passing identity. Nevertheless, it is how we experience life from birth to death, defined by this human form and sensory apparatus. It is what we have to practice and realize with. Realization does not mean that our human form vanishes, at least that is my experience. It persists until death or rainbow body (in the dzogchen tradition). Consequently, it is important for me to be aware that I am not the pure and perfect mind itself, i am a practitioner - which is an expression of that pure and perfect mind. Conflating the two leads to errors in understanding and practice in the teachings I follow.

Expensive poison!

Yes, but one can have one hell of an argument! DaoBums for the win!

I've not spent much time on the path of renunciation so I can't really comment much. Not saying it would not be effective, even for me maybe, but I'm glad I found an alternative. I do think it is a difficult path to tread for a householder. Not sure where or if an "if" would fit in there, do you have a suggestion?

Anonymous internet intercourse is always tricky... don't ya think?

The synchronicity of the DaoBums provides... a brief description of working with the tsa, lung, and thigles in the Bön tradition, recently posted on FB by a young practitioner from Menri monastery in Himachal Pradesh for any curious -

Agreed, one mistake is to take it as a goal, per se, another to consider it a separate state. While it is a valuable skill to cultivate, once there is some level of success and stability it should no longer be treated as final goal. It is more of a tool. The goal becomes total integration in all states of human experience. For sure the method is prone to abstraction and disconnection. This is why expert guidance and a close relationship with a lineage and teacher are so important. I very much agree. The work must address everything in human experience, from the coarsest to the most subtle. There is work at each level. In the dzogchen tradition I follow, every formal practice session includes elements from sutra, tantra, and dzogchen. At a minimum prayers, energetic cleansing, and guru yoga. In life, one must attend to the physical body, the subtle body, and mind's nature. I think it is a mistake to fault mahamudra or dzogchen, per se. The fault lies with the teacher and/or the practitioner. That is where misleading and misunderstanding occur. In these vehicles, there is a common tendency to conflate the practitioner with the inherent perfection of the primordially pure essence. It is not surprising, given that this is the very essence of the practitioner herself. It is my contention that in the living being, there is never complete and perfect union with / resting in pristine consciousness. Any experience we have of "that" is actually an experience of the release of an obstacle that was previously limiting our openness, our spaciousness, our warmth in some way. This is in part because in life we are always limited by our human form and in part because what we are pointing to in these teachings is not "a state" of any sort in the way we can envision what that means. We remain human and it is the human mind that experiences and recollects the release of limitations as some special state. That in and of itself is a bit of an error. Yes, there can be a lot of talk, particularly by anonymous folks online and in teaching sessions especially when beginner and intermediate practitioners are involved, but the talk and study are released and become less interesting as the path is understood. There was a time when I couldn't get enough of reading and listening to the teachings. I would read before, during, and after work, and on the weekends. I would listen to recordings whenever driving. Now these rarely hold my attention any longer. It is the resting and the integration that are most fascinating and engaging for the most part.

Nungali is like life. Sometimes they will slap you in the face, sometimes tickle you with joy, sometimes you feel like you just need a break, and at other times they will surprise you with the unexpected. I have ignored some people here on occasion (never Nungali though) when not modding. One of the downsides of being a mod/admin - you can't ignore people. I haven't felt the need to do so in a long time, probably not since the great right wing expulsion. The people who irritate me the most are pointing to something in me that is worthy of acknowledgement, recognition, and reconciliation. It's a bit like forgiveness in that it is more for the one offering than for the one receiving, though both can ultimately benefit. Now that I've spouted off some wise sounding words, someone will probably piss me off enough to put them on ignore any time now!

Curiosity is most wonderful and is the motivating factor for both my interest in meditation and my interest in science. Each is a valid and valuable avenue of exploration of the nature of me, which is not separate from the nature of the universe. I would feel incomplete if I didn't give some of my attention to each. For me, both are inextricably connected.

I like two. The color of the outline and the transparency appeal more to my eye.

I can relate. I rarely read or ponder this sort of thing any longer. I spend far more time practicing than studying or thinking about it. On the other hand, some topics do catch my interest and this happens to be one.

No need for an apology. I very much appreciate both responses. Good stuff here with which to spend some time. 🙏🏼

Interesting assertions @Bindi, thanks for sharing. I hope you don't mind a few questions to help me understand where you are coming from. You propose that dreams are completely independent of subjective beliefs. Do you feel that our lifetime of conditioning, our assumptions and expectations, our life experience and its effects on our body, mind, and spirit have no effect on what arises in the heart/mind during sleep? You suggest that dreams, which are limited to individual subjective experience, are the closest thing to your experience of objective reality. That begs the question - how to define objectivity and reality?

It's definitely not very clear or easy to grasp but if you have the patience to read through the second paper I referenced above it does a very nice job of walking through fundamental ways of thinking about consciousness, quantum mechanics, and how the two could relate to one another in the context of the brain, nervous system, and beyond. It's not an easy read but I find the ideas and methods of inquiry fascinating. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1571064513001188?via%3Dihub

Don't worry, be happy! And don't worry, be sad! Don't worry, be angry And don't worry, be fabulous! Be everything fully but don't take any of it too seriously, in a short time it will change. The "Absolute" has no preference and no limitation, everything is a part of it without exception.

This site has a lot of free and copyright-free images https://www.dreamstime.com/photos-images/fire-horse.html

Here's a copyright free image that's not bad....

I would bet there would be more traffic, and less contention, than the new Neidan forum. About the only discussion there has been debate over Winn and Chia and an attempt to list legitimate schools. I think we could come up with a workable definition. You are indigenous to England but would not count because you are not a religion or belief system. Although some of us believe you are divine... Western? When the Western world encounters indigenous belief systems it tends to denigrate or eradicate them, then a century or so later name their sports clubs, autos, and restaurants after them... They are certainly not geographically limited to the West. The are esoteric and occult, but not really what was intended to be the subject of the Esoteric and Occult sub-forum here, I don't think. I would like to suggest they be honored and respected by having their own sub-forum or left in General Discussion.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Some of my rambling thoughts on the matter, fwiw. Our minds come up with all sorts of things, some of little consequence and some very consequential, some weird and wonderful. Personally, I don't spend too much time trying to find explanations for these things, rational or otherwise. Do we sometimes meet with our minds from the past or future? Why not? Time is not as fixed or linear as once believed. Is it just content being created by the monkey mind based on all of the input over a lifetime and more? Why not? That does not mean that it is not very significant and meaningful. Fortune telling and astrology are not set in stone and are not death or illness sentences, they are simply constellations of external conditions and how they relate to our own constellations of internal conditions. I was in a similar state as you coming into my 60th year - warnings from Tibetan and Chinese friends and so forth. Fortunately, nothing particularly bad occurred for me. I don't brush off my weird little mind and I don't take it too seriously either. I don't brush of horoscopes and warnings and strange experiences, like meeting with a past or future self, or having visions, and I don't take them too seriously either. I do recommend attending to healthy choices as best you can determine them. Your body is aging and needs attention and care. It's the only one you get. Much of life in our technological age is unhealthy for the body and mind. If it means listening to an inner voice or a voice from the future or past, that is fine. No need to analyze or judge its veracity, it's still just another voice. The important thing, IMO, is trying to recognize the source of that voice. Does it feel authentic or is it based in emotional reactivity or psychological baggage? Does it come from the source or from pain and ignorance. Is it the Dao speaking and flowing through you or rumblings from an unhealthy or overly indulgent meal? Is it a future self or an ancestral trauma? Does it matter? I think it is most healthy to find something to trust, something that is not dependent on the monkey mind and labile emotions. Something not rooted in conditioned patterns coming from ancestral, social, and cultural trauma and dysfunction. For me that is one major benefit of my meditation practice. I think it could be helpful to sit quietly and be very open and still for a time. Once the mind and heart are somewhat settled and open, drop a question in like dropping a pebble in a calm pond. A question like, can I trust this inner voice, is it authentic? Or, shall I engage in this new qigong? Or, do I realy need these supplements? Just one at a time. See how it feels, not thinking about it, just allowing the ripples to arise and spread for a time. Leave them be after asking the question, don't engage, just remain open and present. Then continue to sit in that stillness and openness that returns once the mind has once again settled. I find that whatever comes from that quiet and still place is authentic, it is something I can trust. Maybe more precise to say it is something I have chosen to trust. I find that what comes from that place tends to be more accurate and dependable than decisions made from thinking or emotionally charged responses. The key is that one must be able to truly rest and be open to the stillness, silence, and spaciousness of body, speech, and mind. Whatever happens, whatever comes for you in this year of the Fire Horse, you will be OK. Situations and circumstances change. Our capacity for being open and present and responsive to the situation is always there. If we can trust in that, we can be OK even when we're not OK. I may sound overly confident and certain and I am not. I also worry and get distracted by thoughts and feelings all the time. Health, family, work, politics, finances - all sorts of worries and challenges. What I am saying to you is an externalization of what I tell myself and try to practice. I'm reminded in this moment of the Theravadan monks currently walking from Texas to Washington, DC - 2,300 miles. Simple human beings without any particular physical training walking everyday through the harshest of conditions, -15℃ with windchill much lower, through ice and snowstorms... all to raise awareness of the potential for peace in our country and in our lives. WOW, what power! What courage! What resilience! It boggles my weird, little mind. They are OK, I am OK, you are OK, even the poor monk who lost his leg to an impatient driver is OK, and yet... it's OK to not always be OK. Sending you warmth and good wishes

Yes, when you start a new topic there are two tabs - one to define content and one gives an option to create a poll.

That's fantastic! Congratulations @dwai Is it available anywhere other than Amazon?

Me too, again

Sending you good vibes and warm friendship @Cobie

🤣 I was kidding about the poll but … 🤷‍♂️ I still like Taomeow’s horsey best.

I think we need to set up a poll