doc benway

May I ask, do you think the input you received here helped you get through the darkness?

Are you interested only in the chemical and anatomic pathways?

I think that there is no inherent problem with combining Qigong and meditation from another system, provided you know what each system and practice entails, their view of things, how it affects you, what the objectives are, and what your expectations are. In most cases, I suspect we engage in a practice for a bit, have expectations that are unmet, and jump to another. This goes on and on and then we conclude that the practices don't work when we simply have never done them justice. I would suggest you pick a practice to which you feel a connection and stick with it long enough to see what it's doing for you and whether there is truly a need for anything else in your own experience, not based on observing others. Your experience is not theirs, your experience will be unique to your proclivities and karma. For most people, seeing physical, emotional, and energetic changes takes time - months or years. Also best to receive the most credible and authoritative instruction and guidance in the practice possible. Whether qigong, neigong, meditation,... these are all practices that require precision and commitment to bear fruit. In general, energetic practices like Qigong are highly compatible with meditative practice. In my tradition, every meditation session is preceded by exercises that use the breath, attention, and body movement to clear obstacles to a deeper inner connection and stability. I can't specifically speak to Kriya Yoga as I've never practiced it. Regarding Qigong, I would suggest you look at practices that are designed to clear blockages and restore balance (eg Eight Brocades), as these will support the meditative experience. Qigong and Neigong that is designed to concentrate and build or focus energy (eg martial forms like Shiba Luohangong), are more likely to be disruptive of the meditative process and are probably more likely to have a negative interaction when mixing with other systems. That's my general impression. At the end of the day you need to be a responsible consumer. You need to do your research, find quality instruction, and be the best student you can be. Results are not guaranteed on this path. I would also advise a bit of caution when taking advice from a group of anonymous folks hanging out online. Some speak from solid experience and knowledge, others are a bit wacky and could steer you wrong. Best of luck to you!

Cool

Interesting history. I'm surprised how tall some of the "pillows" were. Doesn't seem very good for the neck.

This is simply an attempt at deflection. It may be working for you but most of us see through it, I suspect. I do not consider asking for evidence a problem. It's quite clear that multiple people are, or have been, highly reactive to you and your "group" over the years. They consistently state that it is not your system, it is reactivity to your presentation and communication which at times have had those characteristics in the past. I think the invective has softened over the years but it's obviously still enough to cause reactivity in some. You can use the reactivity you experience as feedback that can help refine your communication and presentation skills, or you can simply pretend everyone else is wrong and ignore it. Your choice. And you

You're familiar enough with the threads I allude to that you either get my point or choose not to. And I'll let it go at this point. Peace

The description of the fascist narrative in Encephalon’s post put me in mind of the historical MoPai narrative here which was often presented in a way that is highly critical, demeaning, and dismissive of all others systems and opinions (with the exception of tummo, to be fair).

I came across Encephalon’s thread about Daoism and Fascism and I get the sense that this is the source of reactivity to MildMouse and the Mo Pai crew (assuming there are more than one) that post here.

And the climax of the series dovetails beautifully with my own spiritual tradition. I don’t want to give it away. One of the best series I’ve seen. I plan to watch a film by one of the directors of the series, Ciro Guerra, called Embrace of the Serpent. Also set in the Amazon.

a bird on the wing no trace at all in the sky remains in its wake

🙏🏽

I'm not talking about believing in anything. I'm not talking about magical attunements and transmissions. I'm talking about human relationship, friendship, communication, confidence, trust, devotion, gratitude, love... The whole range of human emotion and expression that is rooted in relationship. This is what a teacher and a lineage bring to the table. Have you ever spent some quality time with a person? Did you come away with nothing other than information? There is so much more to human interaction, whether teacher, friend, lover,... We communicate on many levels, some conceptual, some verbal, but also in other, more subtle, ways. It's worth paying attention to the entire spectrum of experience, IMO. Yes, there is value in accurate information and diligence - no question. But it only takes you so far and there is so much more than that. One will never scratch the surface of mastery of a traditional martial art, for example, without relationship - with a teacher, with practice partners, opponents... For the type of practice we're discussing here, martial and spiritual, the likelihood of high level mastery for an individual in isolation armed with bootstraps and some videos of a teacher they've never met is negligible, IMO. Lineage has real power. Without lineage, there would be no John Chang or Mo Pai. Lineage is the only thing that keeps it accurate and keeps it alive. If you've ever felt the true power and support of lineage and a personal, engaged teacher, I suspect you would have a different perspective. And if you simply don't feel a need for a teacher and a lineage supporting you, that's wonderful too. We all need different things at different times in our lives. When I get together with my teacher at a retreat, he often says that we are not coming together to exchange or receive information. If that is what we're looking for all we need do is pull out our cellphone. There is more information online than could be assimilated in a hundred lifetimes. We come together for relationship, for connection, to share life experience. It's about far more than learning a skill.

I'll have to disagree with you on this point. For me there is far more happening in a personal meeting with a teacher than a simple exchange of information, regardless of the complexity of the practices in question.

Good points all around. My post was not meant to negate any of the earlier points made, just bringing out another perspective. The one thing I'll add is that video is a wonderful tool, especially for arts including body movement, but not a suitable substitute for connecting with the living teacher and lineage, IMO. Videos can't give feedback or corrections. If we have a wrong understanding or subtle error in our interpretation of the video presentation, there is no one and no way to identify and correct it. In the Dzogchen teachings, traditionally it is said that students are not permitted to take notes (let alone record teachings). The student is expected to pay careful attention and internalize the teachings. Their understanding is then checked by the teacher for precision.

The take-away message for me here has nothing to do with charlatans, intentional misguidance, faking, keyboard warriors, specific systems... any of that. None of us are perfect. We are generally unable to precisely replicate our teachers' and systems' teachings, whether it be in meditation, qigong, or martial arts. Even with the best of intentions, every system changes over time. In some ways, change and flexibility in the system is essential because it must adapt, not only to the individual practitioners' abilities and proclivities, but to the changing culture or adopting cultures. On the other hand, the closer we stick to the source material, the less likely we will corrupt the teachings.The closer our connection to the source, the more likely we are to get the message, get it right for ourselves, and pass it on as accurately as possible. This is why I also tend to look for a connection to a living and credible lineage when studying something that is important to me.

under fuchsia skies the wise, each as all yet none as other, resting

mild winter beckons... Thom cats wailing in tandem, glistening sky song

I’m currently watching Frontera Verde on Netflix. I really like the series - a murder mystery set in Amazonia with a nice spiritual core.

This is correct in the dzogchen teachings. The three bodies, at least according to the dzogchen teachings that I've received and studied, are not a progression. They are inseparable. This perspective may vary among the three categories of Buddhist teachings (sutra, tantra, and dzogchen). Edited to add: In the dzogchen teachings, "acquisition" would be considered a wrong view. The three bodies are not acquired, nor is there anyone to acquire anything. In this model when one has adequately let go of attachment to the self, perception, and all of the conditioned responses; the three bodies are always already present. That is precisely the meaning of dzogchen, the great perfection or completion. Again, the other Buddhist teachings may approach the topic a bit differently.

I like the ideas for further consolidation and screening.

Loving this thread, thanks!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I agree.

Herbophilia

I often interact with Chinese-Americans seeking healthcare. They very rarely have any interest or confidence in traditional methods a be it Qigong, acupuncture, tuina, taiji..., IME. They have far more confidence in what they consider to be ‘science-based’ treatment - their words, not mine. Indian and Japanese patients tend to be more confident in traditional methods and combine them with Western treatment. I suspect it is a combination of the purging of the cultural revolution and the tendency for descendants of immigrants to abandon the “old” ways. The nightmarish complexity and dysfunction of the US system is likely to encourage a return to the “old” ways eventually, I suspect. To some degree, I think it is already happening.