doc benway

It all depends on what we identify with in any given moment.

The difference is not so much between the "ground and the thought itself" but rather has more to do with our relationship to the ground and thought. Similarly, there is a distinct difference between meditation and "normal daily living" otherwise we would all be enlightened. That is not my observation. Normal daily living can be experienced in a meditative state or a non-meditative state but the two are not equivalent for most of us, other than in theory - that is a projection of mind.

As forestofemptiness mentioned, you're mixing quotes and concepts from different sects and schools - not very helpful. Better to focus on one school if you're interested in consistency and continuity. We're discussing Guru Yoga, something that does not exist in many of the sources you are quoting. This is a wrong view in Dzogchen. The 21 Nails is a core teaching in Bon Dzogchen. It used to be highly secretive but is now often offered publicly and has been published. The first Nail distinguishes the characteristics of mind and the Nature of Mind (or Essence). Thinking is a characteristic of mind. It is not a characteristic of the mind's Nature. A critical step in Dzogchen practice is distinguishing between the mind and the Nature of Mind. This is one important distinction between the two. To you and me yes, but when a Dzogchen Master uses the word "clarity" they are generally referring to a very precise definition, not to any and all meanings of the English word. If you substitute with one of the "many aspects" of clarity you completely change the meaning of Norbu's statement to suit your own bias. It's important to have the context when interpreting Buddhist scripture and commentary as was mentioned earlier. The mind is thinking, that is its nature (not referring to the Nature of Mind, just to the mind's tendency).

Clarity as I’ve been taught, is not a thought, nor is it thought, not a state of mind, nor even experienced by mind. it is a characteristic of the mind’s Essence which is the Ground of All thought and perception. It is not generated or induced, never shared, merged, maintained, It is always ever-present, often unseen, indestructible, complete, and perfectly clear, sometimes revealing its nature to the Blessed Ones!

Lotus

The clarity that Norbu refers to is not a state of mind. It is the primordially pure essence of awareness.

If a Buddha is restricted or limited, she is not a Buddha. The restriction is about mind interfering. That which realizes or has clarity is liberated.

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. If there are "thoughts of clarity" then one has not realized the Primordial State. It is the discursive mind that gives rise to thoughts of clarity. I believe that you are but perhaps don't realize it. It is hard-wired into us at the most fundamental levels of mind. Dudjom Rinpoche's thoughts are just that, the thoughts of a person. That is a manifestation of the discursive mind. There is no "Universal Mind" posited in Buddhism or Bon. We do speak of the Nature of Mind but thoughts are not a characteristic of the Nature of Mind, just the mind itself. Buddhism also does not teach there is "no self." In my opinion, that is a misunderstanding and an error of nihilism. The "something of differing levels of realization that expresses it" is the human mind. There are infinite degrees of subtlety and realization. What more does there need to be? Your posts suggest that you may be conflating different meanings that can be associated with the word clarity. It is primarily used to point to the "awareness" or "presence" aspect of the Natural State but the word clarity in particular is used as it also connotes being clear or empty as well as precise.

Ground

I recently had the good fortune to see the Hilma af Klint exhibit at the Guggenheim. Here is a nice article about her and the exhibit - https://www.guggenheim.org/exhibition/hilma-af-klint

My brother's wife is Mexican. She and their children are of a rich, brown complexion and she retains a distinct Mexican accent. Since Trump's rise in 2016, she and her children have had to endure endless questioning from strangers about their heritage and legality, threats, demands to see ID, admonishments that they "go back to where they came from," and so forth. This happens at work, at school, in the community, anywhere! My beautiful nephews, children, having to face ugly white faces demanding they justify their existence. Why? All because Trump felt it expedient to scapegoat refugees and our poorest and most desperate neighbors, created largely through US foreign policy, in order to boost his political appeal. It was deeply offensive to see that same alt-right insanity invade our quirky little spiritual community here. The alt-right is a cancer. Cancer needs to be treated with urgent, loving, dispassionate, and radical excision. Trumpian and GOP politics are inconsistent with spiritual growth and have no place here, particularly not in the way they've been on display by bullies and bigots. Thank you again Sean. 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

I welcome the intervention Sean. If only the US was a board and you were admin!

... or ....

I think this highlights the discrepancy between "knowledge" and "practice." I can know everything there is to know about chocolate, even have a pantry-full, and still not know how it tastes. Lot's of experts our there, very few effective practitioners. We need only look at any Buddhist website, or the state of "Christianity" in the US. ... or here, apparently.

Project whatever you like Joe. You don’t really know much about my politics. Are you in my perception of whacky? Oh yes Nice but definitely whacky! 😎

So many ways to respond here but I'll try to be brief. First, thank you for bringing up this point. It is an important one. Yes, I've engaged with this question for many years, especially so since 2016. I gave it some consideration again after reading your post in the present context. I don't think there is much value in sharing my conclusions. They're really only meaningful for me. Each of us needs to look at this for ourselves. I've got nothing you haven't already heard if you participate in political discussions and sharing is unlikely to be of much value to either of us. Second, since you've already posted your conclusions and presumptions about my position on censorship and exclusion, I won't bother with that either. I simply posted something I was genuinely feeling in the moment. Your response was to invalidate and negate my experience while using that to further support and defend your own position. This is how we tend to "communicate" in political discussion. Nothing I'm interested in engaging with. This is a major reason I stay out of the political threads entirely. My practice goes in the opposite direction - question my own position, try to break down my own story rather than reify it at another's expense. Finally, the loud and obnoxious right wing rhetoric that blossomed here in 2016 has made the board feel claustrophobic and foreign to me. I've read a lot of crazy shit here over the years but nothing as mean and dangerous as what I've seen in the current political threads. While it's easy to stay out of the political discussion, it is difficult to not be affected by it. Seeing the abject lack of compassion, the harsh indifference to suffering, and the willful ignorance in people who claim interest in spiritual practice and growth has been disappointing and somewhat horrifying for me. Hence, to see someone like Sean lead a bit of charge to counterbalance the extreme right wing invective that's dominated the tenor on this board for 3 years has been a true breath of fresh air for me. Peace y'all

Ahhh, I feel like a cool, fresh breeze is blowing through the board and I can breathe. Thanks Sean

You've touched on something that I'd like to comment on. I suspect my comments will be unpopular among some but I feel it's something that needs to be said. If your spiritual practice is bringing you closer to others and causing you to feel more empathy towards those less fortunate and more vulnerable, they are working. If you feel more open to others, especially those that once generated feelings of aversion, what a blessing! If you look for and find fault in your own positions and actions preferentially, rather than looking to reinforce your beliefs and cut down those of others, you are making progress. Congratulations and keep up the good work. If you find yourself able to tolerate, let alone support, policies and ideology that scapegoat the vulnerable, cause harm to or withhold assistance for the weak, and put up barriers to closer connection with others, particularly neighbors; your practices are failing, you are not experiencing the expected result. You are either engaged in practices that are not effective for your individual spiritual needs, you are not practicing correctly, or your practices are corrupt. Either give up the facade of being interested in spiritual growth or connect with a credible master who can guide you. I almost never attempt to sound authoritative. Here I make an exception.

And when injured they are quickly cut to the curb, I take care of alit of them... retail machine fodder. It’s sad and ugly.

Alan Moore is the shit. Voice of the Fire will forever be with me.. ❤️

Yes For the same reasons you point out, I rarely engage with anything political. I feel the discomfort when sharing and exposing myself that you describe. I frankly feel a bit uncomfortable on the DaoBums anymore. Ironic that a sectarian, egalitarian, Daoist meeting room developed and hosted by a leftist activist has become a “stronghold” for right wing propaganda and invective. I guess political ideology is a bit like a virus, or a mold - it grows and spreads where conditions allow. It’s a little funny and a little disheartening. I think it’s a nice microcosmic illustration of the old adage about complacency. Very nice to hear from your Sean. Big, warm congrats on your life developments! _/\_

I miss him also. The "messy" time was extraordinarily valuable for anyone willing to see. We have the ability to convince ourselves, and others, that we are progressing on the path. The conceptual mind is expert at convincing us that we "understand." Then something happens that smacks us in the face and shows us a glimpse of some ugly truth. Perhaps we are not quite as far along the path as we have come to believe and it can be painful and difficult to accept. That is precisely our opportunity to make some real and meaningful progress. I hope TI did just that and I send him my love, support, and best wishes.

No one can answer this question for you. When we die, we will know, or not. We can rely on the explanations of others but what do they really know? You will come to that place completely alone and will be utterly surprised. The power of that little voice in our heads is astonishing. To be surrounded by such beauty, such infinite potential, and to only see it all as failure because of some set of twisted expectations is really something unfortunate and unique to humans, it seems. And it happens to so many of us! You are in very good company. Generally, it seems to happen mostly to those of us who are living in quite satisfactory conditions. Rather than end your life right away, what about beginning to question the judgement of the chatterbox in your head? That one is seeing a very limited and skewed view of yourself, your potential, and the world around you. That one is very confused and to follow its guidance is foolish. It is fundamental ignorance according to Buddhists. There is a place we can find and connect with that is infinitely more supportive, clear, and accessible. Good luck to you

I love John O Donohue, yet see him so rarely quoted. Thank you

Fortunately, the base is unimputable. All discussion and conclusions reflect our own projections and limitations. All is well.