doc benway

Understood, I don't disagree with what you said, I just wanted to point out that this isn't considered 'the Dzogchen view' It's just a description of three characteristics of the base.

This is not the Dzogchen view. Just an artificial division of the base for purposes of discussion. This is important because the word view has a very precise definition in Dzogchen.

I highly recommend this book for anyone interested in Tantra or Dzogchen, especially Bön. It describes energetic anatomy and physiology, then some advanced Tummo practices. https://www.vajrabookshop.com/categories/vajra-publications/products/the-practice-of-the-tigle-of-the-elements--inner-fire-practice-in-the-mother-tantra PS - transmission highly recommended but approved for open publication

So nice to have you around!

There is most certainly a separation or there would be no need for any questions. There is in my life. To say otherwise for me would be to assert a concept, not to describe the experience of my day to day. Certainly the objective of my tradition is to rest in the Nature of Mind in every waking, dreaming, sleeping, and dying moment. I’ve got a long way to go to claim that as my direct experience in each and every moment. I agree with the idea. Living it fully is a different matter altogether, [edit] for me at least, if some of you are there _/\__/\__/\_, I only speak of my own limitations. It may be artificial from an ideal, conceptual perspective but is that our moment to moment experience? The relative experience is every bit as real as the absolute for me, hence the two truths. I don’t put as much emphasis on that difference from a practical point of view. The emphasis for me is more on the one who is engaging in this distinction. That is known as cutting the root. Yes, there are all sorts of karmic traces at different levels of consciousness. The practice is simply about how we deal with them when they present to our conscious awareness. And the way to deal with them is not to deal with them but to deal with the one who feels there’s something to deal with. We’ll have to simply disagree on this point. Yes, the you is everything (and at the same time nothing) and clarity is one aspect. This is a conceptual view, not the Dzogchen view. In our tradition there are three aspects defined for convenience of communication - space, awareness, and warmth. That is not the view, just a description. When there is no separation, all three aspects are clearly present and inseparable in direct experience. That is the view. My perspective differs in that you only really know there is integration when whatever arises has no power to interrupt that experience, whether sitting on the cushion or fully engaged in life. Things always have and always will “bubble up” as long as we are human and alive. That is my experience and that of everyone I’ve encountered so far on the path. Sure there are times of perfect silence but what counts is the silence within that is undisturbed by noise when it arises, whether inner or outer. Integration is not the absence of the arising of mind for me, it is the stability of openness and restfulness that cannot be disturbed by the arising of mind. In Dzogchen there is simply Being, which is empty, clear, and full of infinite possibility. Any deity is simply a representation of that. Edited to clarify that this is solely my experience, YMMV

I've only studied and practiced with the Bön lineages (there are 3 Bön Dzogchen lineages - A Tri, Drakpa Korsum, and Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud). The Buddhist Dzogchen lineages come through the Nyingma tradition. One important difference is that the Bön Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud is a tradition that has been passed down master to student without interruption dating back to times of antiquity. The teachings were initially passed from mind to mind, then orally, then were written down for the first time around the time of the master, Tapihritsa, around the 7th century. Tapihritsa is therefore extremely important and is the master with whom guru yoga is practiced by Bönpos, whereas the Nyingmapas practice with guru yoga with Padmasambhava. The entire Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud lineage can be studied in a wonderful book which features pith instructions from 24 consecutive masters said to have achieved the rainbow body - https://ligmincha.org/product/masters-of-the-zhang-zhung-nyengyud/. All other lineages have had their transmission interrupted and rediscovered as terma. The iconography and histories also differ between Bön and Buddhist traditions although they do share a few common figures. The basic practices are otherwise quite similar.

I know virtually nothing about Kaballah but your framework seems quite analogous to that of Bön Dzogchen, as I've been taught. The inseparable triad of space (emptiness), awareness (light), and warmth (energy) are the foundation of our conceptualization of the direct experience of the nature of mind. Furthermore they are the basis for the expression of the fruition of practice through the embodiment of the three dimensions or kayas, eg. the living expression of Buddha nature. I've always wanted to study Kabbalah. Sadly, it is not very accessible in Jewish circles which is partly what led to my exploration of other forms of spirituality.

I did not reach that conclusion from your words at all. I agree that is the subject and objective of the teaching. My point is that the very nature of scripture and our requisite approach to its form is a mental understanding. While the teaching may point to such a realization, beyond concept, the vehicle itself is inevitably bound up in concept. Words alone are unlikely to liberate a practitioner, they are simply touchstones or guideposts left by those who've gone before to help us gauge the progress of our experiential practice. And they do play an important role and have value. That is the point of the Beacon of Certainty. My point is that the conceptual mind is so pervasive and fundamental to our life experience that we as practitioners need to be extraordinarily vigilant and precise; yet effortlessly and playfully so in order to approach the non-conceptual in a meaningful way. I agree, the realization of emptiness is experiential and while that realization may be supported or even stimulated for some by scripture, I think it is more closely linked to a combination of conceptual formulation, experiential practice, karma, and blessings. I see it a bit differently. I feel that there are those who develop a very solid mental, I prefer the word conceptual, understanding of emptiness through the study of scripture. This mental understanding is legitimate in its own right but not equivalent to an experiential, non-conceptual realization of emptiness. For me that difference is not insidious, it's quite obvious. On the other hand, I would agree that there are many who don't see the difference. And pointing out such differences to them is generally unhelpful and frustrating to both parties. One must have a frame of reference to 'get it.' The question is not the problem, it's more like the questioner is the problem. Spontaneous release is different than "does not even arise" in my experience. Spontaneous release is when the mental activity arises, is seen for what it is, not interfered with, and incapable of disturbing the effortless restfulness of abiding in the nature of mind. Being unable to disturb, it simply arises, abides in awareness for as long as it needs, and then continues on its merry way to effortless dissolution. It's like a bubble rising from the sea floor to the surface and releasing into the sky. The oft used analogy among the Tibetans is that of snowflakes falling onto the surface of a lake or ocean. The snowflakes are unequivocally there but effortlessly dissolve without ever disturbing the surface of the water. The water takes no action to dissolve them. When resting in that level of meditation, you are correct, the question of release does not even arise. The question arises when the meditation is not at that level of stability and openness, which is more often the case for me in my practice. The analogy used for this level of practice is the sun melting frost. The frost is a bit more solid than flakes of snow, the sun (awareness) takes a modicum of time and energy (attention) to melt it, and yet the degree of energy expended is still relatively minor. There's a third analogy for a more coarse level of meditation but I can't recall it at the moment. The point is that it's not so much whether the liberation is perfectly effortless or somewhat more effortful but that the one questioning is there at all, that is the insidious part for me. For sure there is a level at which such questioning is positive and valuable. Then there comes a time when even such questioning must be released and is, in and of itself, the very obstacle. This is a more subtle level of resting. The one who realizes 'there are still subconscious aspects hanging around' is the more insidious and problematic obstacle than the "underlying issues" he is identifying. Once that one (the practitioner-identity) is able to fully rest, the issues themselves are of no real consequence and will self-liberate in good time and without interference. At least that's the approach we take in my tradition.

In my view, anything put down in words requires a mental understanding. While it may point to non-conceptual "understanding" it cannot escape the conceptual vehicle. We must read and then interpret the words, linking them to a conceptual image of whatever the words are pointing to. The very idea that a scripture has nothing to do with mental understanding is a clue to just how insidious and pervasive the conceptual mind is in our life and practice. I recently had a discussion with a very advanced practitioner and teacher in which I brought up something that I'm finding in my practice. In my meditation practice it is sometimes difficult to discern whether I have allowed a thought or impression to spontaneously liberate or whether I (the meditator) have interrupted or suppressed, which is not the proper technique. When I raised the question she quickly pointed to that very concern as the problem. The one questioning is, in and of itself, the most insidious and challenging one. Far worse than the "problem" he was pointing out.

I love this

Awakening is a progressive thing, it doesn't stop with the realizations expressed by the OP and other posts on this thread. There can be experiences or perspectives of awakening that bring us to a place of frustration, intolerance, aversion towards a 'lesser' level of being that we perceive we've risen above. This can be a painful place to be but it is also an opportunity to come to terms with that very aversion. Know that it is just a perspective. There can be experience and perspective that is quite the opposite. A direct experience of the connection of all life, all sentience, so powerful that one is overwhelmed by unconditional love and compassion for that which once elicited aversion. The danger here is one of attachment to that perspective, reification of that experience. It's every bit as much an obstacle as the ignorance. Can we take each of these perspectives as our path, integrating and reconciling the seemingly paradoxical truth of each on its own merits? And can we find inner peace in the face of these and all other circumstances that challenge us in both positive and negative ways? That's at least how I attempt to navigate the path.

I think the answers to all of the excellent questions raised can be found by looking inward. Seeing our own reactivity, confusion, frustration that arise when we feel challenged. It expresses in infinite ways. It can be cut at the root. The secret to fixing it - we can only change ourselves, we can’t change others. But if we truly transform ourselves, the world around us benefits.

Hmmm... If that was the case would human life exist at all? I think that human life, all life, is a miraculous display of the infinite potential of the Dao. What it doesn't give a shit about is our expectation and desire to live forever - that's on us.

It was wonderful getting to know you just a little bit Miroku. I certainly understand your reasons for leaving. I've been back and forth a few times. I wish you well on your path.

Another approach to working with gratitude is to work with what is blocking it from naturally arising. In the tradition I follow, the basic premise is that all of the enlightened qualities we seek are already always available in us. We do not consistently experience them because we lack access, we block ourselves from that very access. Our practices are mainly to eliminate those blockages and allow these qualities to arise spontaneously and effortlessly. If we try to generate these qualities they are often misguided, informed by our confusion and ignorance. We don't attempt to pack, concentrate, or store anything because we are not the storehouse, we are simply a conduit or doorway and it is our job to open, not close or hold things in. The storehouse is far greater than this physical body and mind. It is the very ground of existence from which we have never for one instant been separate. So from this perspective, if it appeals to you at all, look at what blocks gratitude from naturally expressing in your life. Is it expectations, taking things for granted, not paying attention to what you have, not taking a moment to appreciate the beauty of the day, the taste of salt, the feel of rain on skin? Do we revel in the miracle of our children growing and learning without getting irritated by their boundless energy and lack of restraint? Do we value the little things our partners do to make our life just a little easier? Do we value the person who takes our trash away knowing that otherwise we would have to do it ourselves? Do we even see that person, maybe say hi, leave them a little gift? Do we value each and every breath, knowing that many struggle every time they breath; each and every bite of food knowing so many children are presently hungry? I'm not saying we should be obsessed with everyone who is suffering all around us but we need context for the many wonderful things we take for granted every day. A little bit of mindfulness can go a very long way. Every moment of life is filled with so many blessings! Simply having this opportunity to type on a keyboard and share thoughts with all of you all around the world instantaneously... unbelievable! And to think so many have to walk miles just to collect water every day, others hiding in fear as bombs drop around them or gunshots ring out from the drug gangs like in my poor city, one of the most violent on earth. You asked about how to share gratitude. For me this is very practical. Meditations are wonderful and energetic practices are supportive but to really bring this stuff alive it needs to express in our lives and in our relationships. Energy isn't just something to be guided through the channels or concentrated in the dantian, it is what courses through me as I am connected to my inner source and share that connection with others with openness and sincerity. Energy is connection, just like a circuit, break the circuit and there is nothing there, no flow. I try to be a bit more mindful as I interact with others, knowing that they likely have some significant challenges in their lives, some may be horrific. I try to see that the world looks very different from their perspective and their interaction with me reflects their perspective. My perspective may be profoundly different in ways I can't even imagine. Can that give us the opportunity to feel a bit more patience, a bit more understanding, and not take things so personally? Can we make eye contact with everyone we meet and offer a genuine, warm smile because we feel so fortunate to be able to walk and see? Can we go the extra mile to express our good fortune through a little volunteer work on a Sunday morning rather than typing posts online? Can we tip a little larger, take a little less, make our next car electric, and listen more to others rather than tell them that they should be more appreciative for what they have? This is not about telling others what to do it is about looking more deeply and carefully inside. For me gratitude starts recognizing that voice inside that is so often critical and judgmental and seeing it for what it is, simply energy, ignorance of my true nature manifesting in many dysfunctional ways. Gratitude requires connecting with a deeper, more authentic source of that energy in a way that allows it to express without being distorted by all my many desires and expectations. When the inner voice no longer has control of my life, there is an opening for something much more powerful and authentic to manifest. Many qualities can come from that source and what comes is generally what is required by whatever circumstances are present in the moment. Anyway, sorry for the rambling post but I was feeling a little bit connected inside and this is what spilled out. Have a wonderful Sunday everyone! I need to do some work...

Such a beautiful experience to share. Thank you I would agree that you are heading in the right direction in terms of an understanding and integration of Wu Wei in life. I agree and came to the conclusion that Wu Wei is not pointing so much at the doing but the doer. When that one is not doing, the doing is pure and spontaneous. When the doer is engaged, there is interference. I think this is a big part of why the intellect is relegated to secondary importance so often in the Daoist classics. It's very explicit in the Bon and Buddhist teachings where that mis-identification with the doer is referred to as the fundamental poison, ignorance. At first, mantra is intentional and a doing. Over time, with thousands or hundreds of thousands of repetitions, the doer is allowed to fall away and thus mantra is a tool to bridge the gap between doing and non-doing. That is essentially its purpose. The tantric practice of becoming the deity has two parts, the first is the doing to create the form. The second is the direct realization of its empty nature, the absence of inherent selfness. This realization is an indication of where you are in your practice. You've seen your tendency to over-identify with the role of practitioner. That identity is changeable, it is not you. None of the roles in life you identify with are ever who you are. They are temporary voices created by your relationship to circumstances. There is the practitioner, the father, the lover, the teacher, the perfectionist, the stoner, the neat freak... whatever. We are none of those things but in any given moment we react to our circumstances from one or a combination of those perspectives. The tendency to do this is the obscuration. The ability to let go of that tendency is the "mastery" of Wu Wei. Yes, it is absolutely possible to let go of expectations. It is a progressive thing and there will be years of ups and downs but, with persistence and skillful practice, the tendency lessens over time and ultimately loses its place as the driving force of our lives. This is a very practical thing. Spiritual development must be practical or it is simply the activity of that monkey mind who identifies as philosopher or practitioner. One must take all of the spiritual poetry as practical, direct instruction, not as a comprehensive or definitive description of some unchangeable reality. That is the mistake so many of us make. Yes spiritual poetry is a vision of "what could be" but even more importantly it is a vision of what will be when you put it into practice effectively. In our tradition, it is said that the result and the act are one and the same. We divide the path into view, meditation, conduct, and fruition - all are precisely the same. This is tricky to come to terms with. It is not something to understand. It is something that becomes clear once one begins to gain deeper realization.

That just blew my mind as well, I can't imagine how it must feel for you. What a blessing! Thank you for sharing that.

To assume that is the fundamental problem misses the mark. Ignoring the pain of others only compounds the problem. It solves nothing.

My intention is not to sound tongue in cheek but I may come across that way and for that I apologize. Being already perfect and complete is not and cannot be adequately captured as an idea. As an idea it is of very little value. In fact, it is sometimes a distraction. It cannot be done justice by the conceptual mind. It can be accessed through skillful and patient practice but there is no guarantee. There seems to be an element of blessing or karma involved. When you experience it, all of the answers are there and you will see. All of the classic writings of all traditions make sense and one can see precisely what they are all pointing to in their unique languages. Until then it is likely to be a frustrating and elusive topic. Communication between those who've had the experience and those who have not yet done so is challenging because there is no frame of reference. It is like describing the taste of chocolate to someone who has never tasted it or like trying to describe the color blue to someone without sight. One can describe it eloquently but the words ring hollow. It is nothing more than a subtle shift in perspective but that shift makes all the difference and cannot be forced or faked. The truth of effortless perfection does not negate the truth of following a path of willful work towards spiritual development. Both are equally valid depending on where we are on the path. When you have a direct realization of emptiness (eg experience the inherent perfection of being), there is a knowing that transcends the need to change anything at all. From that perspective one sees that no matter where you are, you are precisely where you need to be. To be somewhere else changes nothing because we are no longer limited to a narrow frame of reference. I like the analogy of space. If you consider unbounded, empty space without any reference point, where is the center? Is one point in space any better or different from any other? All points are equal. Or the analogy of the sky, it has no problem with clouds or planes or hurricanes. All of those things come and go and the sky is unchanged. After having such a realization everything changes. At the same time, everything is exactly the same as it has ever been. While some may dwell in perfect realization at all times, most of us bounce back and forth. The initial realization can be relatively subtle and progressive for some or sudden and earth-shattering. What we experience is determined by what it is that is blocking that realization more so than it is a characteristic of the Nature of Being itself. Eventually our daily lives go on and at some point the realization, while still informing our lives, may give way to varying degree of ongoing struggle and distraction. To the extent that we are able to rest effortlessly in open presence, undisturbed by whatever may arise, nothing at all is needed. All is well. All is, and has always been, already perfect. The instruction of the Dzogchen (Great Perfection) masters is simply "leave it as it is." To the extent that we find ourselves struggling with the fundamental "poisons" of aversion, attachment, and ignorance, the path towards continued personal, spiritual development remains important and valuable in our lives. This is the nature of the Two Truths in Buddhism. Not sure if this is relevant or of any value to you but I thought I'd share. I would suggest that the only thing of real value is dedicated practice with the guidance of a master of a credible wisdom tradition.

The people we choose to run our country blow my mind. I’m a few years past 54 and still can’t wrap my head around that one...

Karma

Netflix did a documentary on the compound in Oregon called Wild Country. It was well done and compelling. His book, When the Shoe Fits, really spoke to me.

This! _/\_ While I concede the truth of degeneration and dilution of wisdom traditions, my experience is this is only half the picture. There are accessible, highly realized, and deeply innovative masters out there. Traditions must be alive and able to adapt, otherwise they cannot speak to those of us living in profoundly different times, cultures, and circumstances. Books alone can’t accomplish this. A living master who has understanding and realization is necessary to communicate in response to our needs, which are highly variable. This is the nature of the importance of “transmission.” The meaning is transmitted, not just the words. It’s not all doom and gloom. That’s just the activity of the identity whose expectations are not yet met. We can let go of that one and connect to a credible, living tradition. There is then the possibility of enormous gratitude and limitless potential in this very moment.

What blows my mind is how easy it is for people to completely ignore the pain and suffering of others. Denial and willful ignorance are profoundly powerful and pervasive in our culture.

What are you interested in studying?