doc benway

Enough is enough Appetite satiated I am still hungry

Yes, it’s not so much about what means what to whom. The point is we can only experience our own stuff and those experiences will affect each of us in unique ways. I’m happy to disagree here. Approaching meditation as an accessible and ‘no big deal’ practice that can have healing and supportive effects is enough for most people and valuable to most. This gives them an easy in and easy out. It lets them see for themselves what the benefits are and whether they should dig deep. That should always be a personal choice. Treating it as some distant and wondrous goal is more likely to cause the excitement you describe, IMO. On the other hand, sometimes failing is precisely what people need to learn and grow. I try not to judge for others, it’s their life. I take a different tack. I generally do not presume to know what someone else needs in their life, particularly when it comes to spiritual growth. Sometimes, I have doubt as to what I need, let alone others. I tend to take a position of support and encouragement if someone has chosen to tread a particular path but I would never try and push someone if they were undecided. They need to open the door and step through, then I’m happy to help if I can.

Agreed One of my primary objections to using the word ‘meditation’ as some specific and extreme experience or state is that it sets up an expectation, a duality, a goal. It gives the impression that there is a need for enormous effort. This is the antithesis of the ‘dropping in’ or ‘opening up’ to what is always already there. This sort of goal oriented behavior becomes a major obstacle to the very experience of meditation as Freeform is using the word. Very true Agreed, for me this also applies to meditative experiences.

Meditation is simply an English word which can be more or less arbitrarily mapped to any number of words in other languages. Multiple people in this very thread are using it to mean different things. I don't find that very helpful in terms of clear communication. In a similar vein, the word "awakening" can be used in a very arbitrary way. If you've had "all sorts of profound 'awakenings,'" none of which approach your definition of meditation, I would question just how profound and awake those experiences were. They certainly wouldn't qualify as "awakening" in my use of the word. And that's OK, coming from such disparate backgrounds and traditions, we don't and perhaps can't all agree on defining such terms. I would suggest we use the word meditation in a more general sense to encompass the practices, both simple and complex, rather than to denote a single particular state or achievement that is nearly impossible for a mere mortal to attain. In this way, we are less likely to discourage those coming to the practice as beginners who need encouragement and support rather than showing them Mt. Everest and giving them a walking stick and pair of sandals. Not trying to be critical, just some food for thought.

I recently came across this brief teaching from the Dalai Lama. I thought it might be of some value to share here. "In order to train in the path that would allow us to transform death, the intermediate state, and rebirth, we have to practice on three occasions: during the waking state, during the sleeping state, and during the death process. This entails integrating the self with spiritual training. Now we have three sets of three: Death, intermediate state, and rebirth Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya Sleeping, dreaming, and waking In order to achieve the ultimate states of Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya, one must become acquainted with the three stages of death, intermediate state, and rebirth. In order to become acquainted with these three, one must gain acquaintance with the states of dreamless sleep, dreaming, and waking. “To gain the proper experience during sleep and the waking state, I think it is crucial to become familiar, by means of imagination, with the eightfold process of dying, beginning with the waking conscious state and culminating in the clear light of death. This entails a dissolution process, a withdrawal. At each stage of the actual dying process there are internal signs, and to familiarize yourself with these, you imagine them during meditation in your daytime practice. Then in your imagination, abiding at the clear light level of consciousness, you visualize your subtle body departing from your gross body, and you imagine going to different places; then finally you return and the subtle body becomes reabsorbed in your normal form. Once you are experienced at visualizing this during daytime practice, then when you fall asleep an analogous eightfold process occurs naturally and quickly. That’s the best method for enabling you to recognize the dreamless sleep state as the dreamless sleep state. But without deeper meditative experience of this in the daytime, it’s very difficult to realize this dissolution as you fall asleep. “In the Highest Yoga Tantra practice there are two stages for any sadhana or visualization practice: the stage of generation and the stage of completion. In the stage of generation, the more basic of these two, this whole eightfold process of dissolution is experienced only by the power of imagination; you just visualize it. But in the second stage of practice, the stage of completion, by means of prana yoga, including the vase meditation, you bring the vital energies into the central channel, and you actually bring about such a dissolution, not just with imagination, but in terms of reality. You bring about such a dissolution, and at a certain level of this practice the clear light will manifest. “If you’ve arrived at that point in your experience and practice, then it’s very easy for you to recognize the clear light of sleep when that naturally occurs. And if you have arrived at the point where you can recognize dreamless sleep as dreamless sleep, then it’s very easy for you to recognize the dream as the dream. “This discussion concerns the means of ascertaining sleep as sleep and dream as dream by the power of vital energy. That’s one avenue leading to that result. Now, going back to daytime practice, if one has not reached that level of insight or experience through the vital energy practice, then during the daytime you accomplish this by the power of intent, rather than power of vital energy. Intent means you have to strive very diligently, with a lot of determination. In such practice, recognizing dreamless sleep is harder than recognizing the dream as dream. “Different factors are involved in the ability to recognize the dream as dream. One is diet. Specifically, your diet should be compatible with your own metabolism. For example, in Tibetan medicine, one speaks of the three elements: wind, bile, and phlegm. One or more of these elements are predominant in some people. You should have a diet that helps to maintain balance among these various humors within the body. Moreover, if your sleep is too deep, your dreams will not be very clear. In order to bring about clearer dreams and lighter sleep, you should eat somewhat less. In addition, as you’re falling asleep, you direct your awareness up to the forehead. On the other hand, if your sleep is too light, this will also act as an obstacle for gaining success in this practice. In order to deepen your sleep, you should take heavier, oilier food; and as you’re falling asleep, you should direct your attention down to the vital energy center at the level of navel or the genitals. If your dreams are not clear, as you’re falling asleep you should direct your awareness to the throat center. In this practice, just as in using the device sent by LaBerge (see p. 106), when you begin dreaming it’s helpful to have someone say quietly, ‘You are dreaming now. Try to recognize the dream as the dream.’ “Once you are able to recognize the clear light of sleep as the clear light of sleep, that recognition can enable you to sustain that state for a longer period. The main purpose of dream yoga in the context of tantric practice is to first recognize the dream state as dream state. Then, in the next stage of the practice you focus your attention on the heart center of your dream body and try to withdraw the vital energy into that center. That leads to an experience of the clear light of sleep, which arises when the dream state ceases. “The experience of clear light that you have during sleep is not very subtle. As you progress in your practice of dream yoga, the first experience of the clear light occurs as a result of focusing your attention at the heart center of the dream body. Although the clear light state during sleep at the beginning is not very subtle, through practice you’ll be able to make it subtler and also prolong its duration. Also, a secondary benefit of this dream body is that you can be a perfect spy.” He laughed in his usual style. Realizing how much time the teaching had taken, and how late it was, he got up, bowed to all present, and left. We slowly gathered our notes and pads, resting in the aura of a knowledge that was both vast and difficult to grasp."

As Zen Pig says below, we tend to point to a big bad "they" but I'm not sure "they" are organized enough to really exist in the way such a statement suggests. What matters to me is not so much whether Buddhism or Yoga has degenerated in the West but whether my own practice and understanding stays true to the Dharma. Particularly in this age of technology and the global information platform we are using for this very discussion, there is little distinction between East and West. Teachings directly from the source are very easy to access online, not to mention in books and other media. This mixing and blending of East and West is precisely what Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is so critical of. This myth of not being able to find the "true" Dharma in the West no longer holds today, if it ever did. Sure there are lots of examples of corruption but also many examples of truth and this phenomenon is not limited to the West. The Dharma was always intended to transcend a cultural milieu. As Alan Watts used to say, in many ways Buddhism is Hinduism pared down for export purposes. Looking more closely at Buddhism in India, southeast Asia, China, Japan, and Tibet gives a very good sense of this. There is no reason to limit Buddhism's potential to grow and adapt to the unique cultural environments in the US, Europe, Latin America, and so forth.

Nor do I. People, with and without money, and governments do both "good" and "bad." To take it a step further, I'll once again paraphrase Anthony Demello - 'most charity and generosity are self-interest disguised as altruism.' While I do don't rule out the possibility of a truly self-less act, it is rare. I agree, although I would also agree that it's far more prevalent than I would like. I guess you could explain all the potential benefits of meditation in terms of depth of relaxation of the mind but to me that description doesn't do it justice. It's not so much that I want more but I experience far more. Not the least of which is progressive degrees of freedom from confusion and ignorance - not a trivial achievement! And then some! The discussion I referenced earlier brought out some interesting historical points in Buddhism. If you have a FB account, it's worth a read.

I recently read an interesting presentation and refutation of this Western corruption of Buddhadharma between Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche and Malcom Smith on Facebook. Misunderstanding, modification, and opportunism in the realm of spirituality is not isolated to the West. Perhaps we are a bit more attuned or sensitive to it here.

Natural walking employs lightly touching down with the heel and rolling onto the flat foot as the body weight loads the leg. That is how the foot is designed. Walking on the balls of the foot is not natural unless you have tight heel cords. You can do it while walking slowly but as you pick up the cadence, you'll see that the heel must touch first. Walking in unnatural ways during walking meditation will be a source of distraction. Meditation while walking should be about a deep, undistracted connection between awareness, the body, and the environment. https://www.softstarshoes.com/live-bare-blog/2016/07/12/how-to-walk-barefoot-or-in-minimal-shoes-or-barefoot/

Meditation has gotten a lot of attention in the medical and scientific community in terms of its utility in healing. It is being used in hospitals to help doctors and other health care providers to deal with burnout and stress. It's being used and studied in the workers' compensation arena to help patients transcend the psychological and emotional effects that cause them to have far poorer outcomes than anyone else. It's being used and studied in treating chronic pain, depression and other mental illness, hypertension, cardiac disease, and many other illnesses. Many businesses are seeing the financial benefits of successful meditation programs in the business world. I understand Patrick's cynicism but see it a little differently. Taught properly, meditation should show us how to see clearly and transcend any efforts at control. I recognize this isn't always the case but that is related to the dynamics of the teacher-student relationship more than anything else, IMO. Correct meditation practice is nothing like hypnosis or trance, it is clarifying awareness and cutting through ignorance.

No more than karma is random.

There have been a few Bönpo monks visiting the US who connected with Native folks to compare traditions, same in Mexico. I think there is some very basic commonality in indigenous, shamanic cultures. Great stuff

The Yungdrung Bön teachings have a unique and interesting take on the Soul -

Today is the celebration of the birthday of Nyamme Sherab Gyaltsen, considered to the the Second Buddha of Bön. https://ravencypresswood.com/author/rcw108/

That's the symbol of the Kalachakra. It stands for Wheel of Time and is the symbol of a sacred tantra of Vajrayana Buddhism. Here is some info - http://khentrulrinpoche.com/study/

It looks like the seed syllable A in an early form of Sanskrit called Siddham: http://www.visiblemantra.org/a.html Notice the similarity to the Tibetan Uchen seed syllable A in my avatar.

No question we can and will maintain different opinions, it is all about how we disagree. I advocate for treating each other with respect, opening our minds to the possibility that another's experience or opinion is valid and try to make room for that in our view, rather than dismiss or denigrate it. I also quote others, I see nothing wrong with it as a support to our opinions and positions. When we prioritize such quotes to a dialogue with members based on their positions and experiences it becomes problematic, at least for me.

I ordered it, thanks again for the recommendation. Some of my favorite teachers are as entertaining as they are informing. The most profound lessons I've learned have been non-verbal. One lesson I learned from my current teacher is that our spiritual growth is more closely related to our connections - with other people, our teachers and students, community, nature, and ourselves; than it is related to any information or knowledge we may possess or gain. He'll often say on retreat, 'if you came here for information you'll be disappointed' and remind us that we can find any information we could ever want with a computer or smartphone in a matter of minutes. We gather on retreat to deepen our connection as a community, to deepen our experience through meditation, through sharing, and distancing from the day to day distractions... not to hoard techniques, concepts, and theories. I do acknowledge that there is a legitimate path one can tread to try and liberate the mind through the mind itself but that path is not the one for me. That is one disappointment for me here. I see far too much focus on information, on being correct, on 'winning' a debate at any cost; on figuring things out, on quoting dead gurus, rather than honoring living teachers and traditions. I would love to see this place become more of a community, oriented towards mutual support and genuine camaraderie, rather than a warehouse of information, opinion, and ego. I can recall many instances of trying to offer some helpful information from an alternative perspective and meeting with nothing but denigration and criticism because my perspective didn't align with the "OP" or with a particular participant's paradigm or opinion. For a "spiritual" forum, we can be very closed-minded and opinionated. It's something I'd like to see change but I ain't gonna hold my breath! Sorry to rant but this is a good thread for it... :

Joe sounds like a real peach! Thanks for the recommendation. I've been on this site for a while and have gone through quite a few ups and downs regarding engagement and disengagement. At this point, I delete the majority of my posts before ever publishing them and ignore most of the misinformation I come across. I got involved with this thread for the same reason as you and soon realized I'd said enough. I have little interest in theory and intellectual understanding so debate doesn't turn me on. It's not my place to try and convince anyone of anything, just my option to make an offering if conditions seem favorable. If someone finds something of value in what I say, wonderful! If someone finds what I say to be utter horse-shit, wonderful! It's just words and concepts and, at the end of the day, I'd be better off spending more time on the cushion and with my family. It's really nice to connect with you and I hope you stick around. With warmth and blessings on this beautiful Losar!

My martial arts teacher used to say that if you want to develop real power, practice taijiquan; and if you want to take your taijiqian to the next level, practice meditation.

You're probably right. Happy New Year!

Duck and cover!

My primary practice used to be martial arts with meditation secondary. That is now reversed for me. Meditation is far more important in my life, martial arts not so much.