doc benway

You're probably right. Happy New Year!

Duck and cover!

My primary practice used to be martial arts with meditation secondary. That is now reversed for me. Meditation is far more important in my life, martial arts not so much.

The shamanic way to address this would be to heal or retrieve your damaged soul through connection with the natural elements. One could journey inward and identify what is lacking or excessive from an elemental point of view - earth, water, fire, air, and space in the tradition I follow. Then connecting with elements that are lacking or their converse if in excess is a simplistic and accessible approach to shamanic healing. The approach to forgiveness could take the form of looking dispassionately at your "enemy's" actions to see how they arise from circumstances and conditioning - their fears, anxieties, conditioning, habitual, and dysfunctional patterns. This is supported by, once again, looking inward to see how the situation may look from their perspective. Do they really mean harm? If so, what would motivate that? If you shared their perspective might you have taken similar action? Most people feel that they are generally doing the "right" thing from their perspective. Is it possible to see this perspective?

Demello's teachings were a big influence and remain a valuable resource for me. Both books you mention are wonderful. His last book, The Way to Love, is my favorite with Awareness a very close second. I have a collection of his talks, the only recording of his workshops he authorized while alive, called Wake Up to Life - magnificent! It's mostly material from the book Awareness.

I find that many of us have a tendency to engage in discourse by providing a challenge or opposing view, sometimes explicit and other times quite subtle - often unaware. I resonate deeply with your posts on this topic. There is nowhere where we can connect more deeply to our subtle selves than when surrounded by ourself. The majority of folks I've spoken to who have had a deep awakening experience have done so either in nature or observing nature. My own first and most profound awakening experience was while riding in a car in the countryside, looking out over an open field as the sun set behind the rolling hills. Here is a beautiful story of retreat to the wild: https://www.lionsroar.com/in-exclusive-first-interview-mingyur-rinpoche-reveals-what-happened-during-his-four-years-as-a-wandering-yogi/

Yes... I intentionally quoted a Hindu (who later became a Jesuit and a psychologist - a brilliant and realized master).

With deep practice and insight there is the possibility of charitable action with no "self" or desire engaged. This is a manifestation of fairly advanced practice and/or realization. Most charity is not quite so selfless... THE MASQUERADE OF CHARITY "Charity is really self-interest masquerading under the form of altruism. You say that it is very difficult to accept that there may be times when you are not honest to goodness really trying to be loving or trustful. Let me simplify it. Let’s make it as simple as possible. Let’s even make it as blunt and extreme as possible, at least to begin with. There are two types of selfishness. The first type is the one where I give myself the pleasure of pleasing myself. That’s what we generally call self-centeredness. The second is when I give myself the pleasure of pleasing others. That would be a more refined kind of selfishness.The first one is very obvious, but the second one is hidden, very hidden, and for that reason more dangerous, because we get to feel that we’re really great. But maybe we’re not all that great after all. You protest when I say that. That’s great!" Anthony deMello.

Engendering fear The masters of media Can control our minds

There certainly is I think you mean most cultivators you've met that are practicing "no-practice" are kidding themselves. Non-doing or non-praciticing implies remaining fully open, present, and connected to the present moment. The 'doing nothing' refers to no visualizations, no mantras, no effort. The core instruction is don't follow the past, anticipate the future, or change the present moment. Whatever comes, leave it as it is and allow it to come, abide, and dissolve as it will. And yes, I'm certainly at a place where it is still practice. There are extended periods of time for me when it is absolutely effortless, so much so that there is sort of an inertia that resists distraction or disconnection. More often, however, there are fluctuating periods of connection and disconnection that still require reconnecting.

Spot on Wisdom Pith instruction! While we can do things, like the practices with channels and chakras, they are simply setting the stage for the real my primary practice - no practice, doing nothing at all, resting in openness in order to allow awareness to remain connected to what is... here and now. "When they want" that opening will blossom into a direct experience of our fundamental essence. When that happens, all our questions are answered without any words or concepts, and all of the words and concepts of the ancient traditions and masters suddenly make sense.

Thank you, rene. Precisely what I needed to put things in perspective here.

I share your opinion and experience on this. It was the last piece in the puzzle to fall into place for me in the posture. I'll also echo the point that ALL of the adjustments in posture are subtle - think in millimeters, not inches... It's also helpful to over-correct at times, then under-correct, and allow those over- and under- adjustments to slowly settle into a feeling of relaxed yet stable equilibrium.

Welcome new Bum, It's good that you're questioning yourself, always a good practice, especially when it comes to beliefs and assumptions in the spiritual realm. We should question all of our assumptions, especially the most basic - hence Zen Pig's fundamental questions. Meditation on such questions is every bit as valuable as working with mental constructs like chakras. FYI - I'm coming from a Tibetan Bön paradigm in terms of my chakra practices and understanding. My experience and understanding differ from your statement that "They don't actually exist but are mental 4th dimensional structures that allow us to build a consciousness somewhere." I hope you forgive me as I pick it apart. What we are practicing towards does not need to be built, it is always already right here awaiting discovery and connection. No need to build consciousness somewhere, it is always present, closer to me than I am to myself. Yes, chakras are mental structures but that doesn't mean they do not exist. Do your thoughts exist? They certainly make an impression on both the inner and outer worlds. Not sure what you mean by 4th dimensional structures, if you are relating to the dimension of time and implying that chakras are transient, aren't we all? I look at a chakra as a conceptual construct that helps us to focus on the things that are preventing us from making the discovery of the purity of our essence, our essential being which is a limitless resource, that is always with us. Chakras are convergence points where the mind and body intersect - areas where we can access, experience, and store energy. That energy is related to our thoughts, feelings, beliefs, experiences, memories, hopes, fears, etc... and how all of that affects and is held in our body. The chakra system is a tool to help us categorize, localize, and work with this very complex amalgam in order to free our selves from all of those blockages and obscurations, the very things that prevent us from discovering what Zen Pig is pointing to - we are already there, we are just distracted. Without a conceptual framework like the chakra system, we can still work on all of that but the system gives us a useful and well-organized tool that assists in the process. In the Daoist system, it is similar, as is the Tantric system. You first build all of the energetic structure (analogous to tantric practices) and then realize you need to let all of that go to experience what has been there all along, primordial purity (I had about 12 years of experience with Daoist meditation practices before coming to Bön). In my practice, from the Bön Dzogchen tradition, we work with the ideas of channels, chakras, and subtle winds (Tibetan word for prana). We have a series of exercises that combine breathing, visualization, and body movement to clear each channel and chakra in order to connect with the stillness, silence, and spaciousness that are always already there. After a series of such exercises, we then simply abide in our natural state. Over time we learn to bring this off the cushion and into every aspect of waking, dreaming, sleeping, and ultimately dying. I hope my perspective is of some value to you.

In my practice, the different postures follow the same basic guidelines. The basic "rule" is to feel the proper alignment in the body with practice. Everything else needs to have some flexibility. Basic guidelines include: - lift the crown - tuck the chin - relax the shoulders - pluck up the back - sink the chest - tuck the tailbone - loosen the knees and ankles - connect through the bubbling well This should become completely stable, effortless, and something we can feel in the body. I was taught to practice wuji for months before considering other postures. Truth is, if you practice wuji long enough, the other postures will naturally and spontaneously manifest from there.

Zen Pig rarely quotes dead gurus. His initial point was well taken and the occasional quotation to support opinion and personal experience is appropriate and welcome. There are those that endlessly quote scripture to prop up an intellectual understanding that is not grounded in direct experience and is therefore shaky and rings hollow. That is who he was criticizing. Those folks would do well to practice more and read (and post) less. I think his criticism was intended as constructive. I get the back lash but it doesn’t diminish his original point. That’s my vote.

I started to write a post related to the OP in a different thread yesterday but deleted it. Lately, I tend to delete most of my posts after seeing them in print. Silence seems preferable to most of my words. I'd imagine some of you would agree! It had to do with our tendency to attach ourselves to a conceptual framework or paradigm. While we feel that aligning ourselves perfectly with a particular tradition is bringing us closer to a deeper understanding (and there is truth to this), at the same time it may well have the effect of restricting our growth. We tend to reject the things that conflict with that paradigm and glom on to things that support it. We are only wiling to see things in a way that allows them to fit into our framework. This leads to limiting our perspective, something I feel is antithetical to spirituality. For me, the single most important quality needed for growth is openness.. While there is some value to the paradigm as a support, we need to be careful it doesn't become a fetish or a belief system. When we start denying and rejecting others' opinions and experiences to maintain our confidence in the paradigm, it has become an obstacle. When we endlessly debate and argue with others, trying to be right or get in the last word, who are we trying to convince? Ourselves Our tendency to try and align our experience with that framework can be quite subtle and pervasive. Even in what we may think is direct experience, the narrator is often there directing our interpretation and processing of the experience, and selecting what we include and what we exclude. I watch this in my meditation practice and in my day to day. When faced with something that doesn't fit into my framework, there are a few possibilities. 1) I can reject the opinion or experience, considering it to be an error, a misunderstanding, a falsehood 2) I can reject my framework, finding it faulty, and go in search of another 3) I can recognize that I may have an imperfect understanding of the framework and recognize that no framework perfectly captures what is real, it is always an approximation. For me, the 3rd option is the most conducive to personal growth in the spiritual arena. Any framework can be a support and none is correct to the exclusion of others.

In general, everything your teacher does is intended to teach you something. I would be open and sit with this and over time you will get your teacher’s message. It may simply be that he wants you to deal with the negative feelings his refusal elicits in you. Who is it in you that feels hurt by this? Who needs to offer something? These identities are what we express in our lives and need to practice with. The greatest gift you can give your teacher is your spiritual growth, the fruits of successful practice. Practice diligently and express the results in your behavior, that is a gift he would never refuse. It’s interesting that you feel hurt when your teacher denies the gift and yet you do the same in turn to another. I think there is a lesson there as well, worthy of some contemplation. I once offered a previous teacher a gift of the best tea I could find in Seattle, expensive stuff. He told me it was crap and that he only drank much finer tea. My wife was pissed. I never offered him another gift! You are fortunate indeed to have such an opportunity.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. My own personal experience and that of sleep yoga practitioners in the Tibetan tantric tradition demonstrate otherwise. I don't want to get too bogged down in labels for different states of consciousness. Different traditions have different labels and paradigms. I'm far more drawn to discussing personal experience over conceptual frameworks. The intellect doesn't only seem to be active, it is active. I appreciate your opinion though don't share it. There are many benefits of lucid dream practice according to my personal experience and the Tibetan tantric tradition. Different strokes, I guess... OK... I guess I'll bite and make a bit of a case for the practices. Yes, you mention two of the benefits and I don't trivialize the value of the second benefit you mention. It can be very powerful for the right practitioner. Other benefits include: - cultivating a sense of flexibility in life. When we experience the power and freedom of changing the situations that arise in the dream state, that freedom from subconscious patterns carries over into waking life. It can be powerfully liberating. Life feels less solid and fixed. We see more options and tap into deeper creativity. We see more opportunity and develop the confidence and mindful awareness to break free of dysfunctional patterns. One doesn't need dream practices to accomplish this but the more tools there are, the more likely we, and others, will have success. - we spend 1/3 of our lives asleep (20-30 years) - imagine having the opportunity to engage in spiritual practice during some or much of this time while still getting just as much rest for the mind and body. - we have a far greater recollection of the dreams and whatever lessons they have to teach us about the relationship between our waking life and subconscious content and processes. Thoreau said, "Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake." - there is a powerful synergy between becoming lucid in our dreams and lucid in our day to day life. As you pointed out earlier, so much of waking life can be conditioned patterns, often dysfunctional. This is both a part of the method and a benefit of the practice. - when we experience or wake ourselves up from a nightmare, whatever issue gave birth to it is usually still present in our subconscious, unaddressed. If we are lucid, we have the opportunity to face and transform the nightmare rather than simply run from it, repress, or suppress it. This allows us to directly work with and liberate deep seated karmic traces. I've been able to end recurring dreams in this fashion and have seen changes in my life that reflect a release of some of those subconscious patterns. I've heard stories of other practitioners using this method to make profound changes in their waking lives. - we can ask for teachings in the dream state from great masters, from nature, from the elements, and receive some very powerful information from the deepest parts of (our) mind. The possibilities are limitless and, at least in my view, there is ample evidence that our dream state gives access to information that is generally otherwise unavailable. Information that can transcend time and space. There are other benefits but I think I've said enough. If you disagree, that is certainly your privilege but for those who are open to these practices, they can be powerful transformative tools and I'd like to provide an alternative perspective in this thread. Sometimes there may be untangling and release. More often these patterns return in similar or varied themes and forms throughout our lives until we deal with them in a conscious and intentional way. It certainly may be true that these practices are of no value to you but that doesn't necessarily mean they are of no value to others. I advocate being supportive of all reasonable practices and looking for their value, particularly when they are supported by generations of lineage masters in ancient wisdom traditions. I don't see much benefit to anyone in discouraging such practices. Different people respond to different things at different times in their lives. I think it's good to encourage people to be open to new paths, even those that may not appeal to or work for me. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this topic that's near and dear to my heart and practice.

I very much appreciate your input and I'm feeling a bit jealous about how well traveled you are! Thank you for pointing out the value of focusing on the transitions between waking, dream, sleep, and waking. In sleep yoga, one of the core practices is to observe the gradually dissolving consciousness into the sleep state. We seem to go from awake to asleep instantaneously, and most have little or no recollection of the transition, but it's not at all like that. If we train ourselves to observe the transition it is fascinating and teaches much about the nature of consciousness and the mind-body connection. I'm occasionally able to maintain awareness through the full transition from waking into dream but never directly from waking into dreamless sleep. Lately my practice hasn't been consistent enough to expect much. For me, it takes quite a bit of time, patience, and commitment to see fruit from the practice.

In the Bön teachings, conscious and subconscious mind are all considered mind. In waking we practice mostly with the conscious mind. As meditation deepens, more of the subconscious content and workings are illuminated by consciousness. In dream yoga, we become conscious in dream and have the opportunity to practice with content that is normally subconscious. In sleep yoga, we become conscious in deep sleep, in the absence of dreams. It is a practice of recognition and stability of the Nature of Mind. The mind and body contain many layers obscuring the pure awareness that knows itself, whatever you prefer to call it. It is said that in the Bardo after Death (the Clear Light Bardo), when we no longer have a body to limit our clarity and experience of spaciousness, they are far greater than anything we can experience in life. Cultivating awareness in deep sleep is said to be the closest we come to this experience in life, as we are temporarily “free” of the body and workings of mind.

I can't speak to the various stages and levels of consciousness and so on. I'm not that knowledgable or well-read. I certainly can't comment on how Buddhas sleep or what they might experience. I've never met one and I don't believe everything I read about them. I did want to share my personal and very limited experience in the hopes that it would add to the discussion. Truth be told, I was driven to post as an objection to the title of this thread... An experience of crystal clear awareness floating in unbounded spaciousness. Unencumbered by images and undisturbed by discursive thought. Perfectly aware of being asleep on the floor of the Gompa during a practice session. Very similar to an experience of unbounded spaciousness and awareness in deep meditation, though without the external stimuli. You seem to be equating conscious awareness with the awareness that is connected with objects, and you seem to be referring to external objects, but that would also count for internal objects (thoughts, feelings, inner narration, dreams). I'm happy to drop the label "conscious" if that bothers you. Some don't like the word awareness. Words carry baggage! Nevertheless, my experience of awareness in deep sleep was essentially the same as awareness in dreaming and waking. It felt every bit as "conscious." The only difference was the absence of any objects of awareness - sounds, lights, and rays; as the Tibetans would say. You mention twice that if conscious awareness was present in sleep, it would be no different than the waking state. The primary difference is that in sleep the sensory organs and musculoskeletal control are disengaged for the most part. And this is not a trivial difference. In my (very limited) experience, that absence of content and stimulation were the only real differences between awareness in deep sleep and awareness in waking life, particularly in stable meditation where the experience is very similar.