doc benway

In the teachings I've received, dream and sleep yoga are considered as separate practices and generally practiced one at a time. Dream yoga is generally practiced first as it is considered far more accessible that sleep yoga. Once some skill and stability in lucid dreaming is achieved, the practitioner will move on to sleep yoga which shares some of the same practices but the core practice is quite different. Certainly these states are related as conscious awareness is present in both cases and is aware that one is asleep. The way it has been explained is that lucid dreaming is very much like being mindfully aware while awake. Discursive thoughts come and go, there is sensory stimulation, and engagement with all of that while maintaining presence and awareness and choice of intention. Contrast this to the waking state when we are not mindful and aware, that is much like non-lucid dreaming. The clear light is more like deep meditative absorption, which is why I used the term samadhi. Awareness is there and yet unconstrained, unfocused, unattached to any sensory stimulus, and undisturbed by discursive thought. The ultimate goal in sleep yoga is to enter into deep sleep while maintaining the presence of conscious awareness without passing through a stage of dreaming. I've not had success with that yet, although I think I've been close a few times. It is also possible to use lucid dreaming as an intermediate stage and simply dissolve the dream state until the clear light is reached. I have had success with that method so, yes, my experience is that lucid dreaming can help reach the clear light state.

This may be a bit of a detour but I'd like to share about yogas of dream and sleep. In the Tibetan Bön tradition, they are part of the tantric teachings and are considered precious. There are two distinct stages - lucid dreaming and the clear light of sleep. Dreaming is practiced first. The benefits of lucid dreaming are multiple. As a tantric practice, it is a great opportunity to work with personal transformation. We are aware that we are dreaming and, with a little practice, able to act intentionally in the dream and change it at will. But we are dreaming - sights, sounds, trains of discursive thought... that is dream yoga. Cultivating the ability to transform the dreams leads to greater flexibility and freedom in waking life. It also helps understand illusory nature of all experience, asleep and awake. Sleep yoga bypasses dream or uses dream as a springboard. Reaching the clear light is a bit like samadhi - total clarity, openness... No visions, no images or arisings. A feeling of pure awareness floating in boundless space. Effortless and very stable, feels like there is an inertia of stability. The teachings say that reaching the clear light even a few times in life helps at the moment of death to recognize the Nature of Mind and self-liberate. Peace

Xoco in Chicago is great!

We have a wonderful mezcaleria, Clavel in downtown Baltimore, with amazing tacos! It's tiny and loud. I LOVE their huitlacoche tacos with a shot of El Buho and a michelada chaser. Mmmmm

No argument from me on any of the above... For me there is a bit of a conundrum. On the one hand, I feel that I cannot know the depth or clarity of experience of another, that is - it is not my role to validate or invalidate their experience; yet there is a clarity and genuineness of presence when meeting someone directly, sometimes even digitally, that generally allows recognition. Other clear and pure voices that have spoken to and guided me - Anthony Demello, Peter Fenner, John O'Donohue, Sailor Bob Adamson (and his teacher, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, of course), Steven Harrison, Alan Watts, Jiddu Krishnamurti, many Bönpo lamas, monks, and advanced practitioners I encounter... One thing that tickles and appeals to me is the unique flavor each brings to their experience and expression of the essence. It's really beautiful and reflective of human qualities and frailties.

Walk on the planes Shaving seconds off of life Curling inward on

Very beautiful! I have an interesting relationship with devotion. Too often, there is a subtle questioning there - not so much a doubt but self-judgement. Disappointing to say I'm still good at that. Swimming in muck, forgetting it's perfect. And in the right space, as you say, devotion is inevitable. It's both a fuel and an expression. It is simply what I am - uncanny how consistent the experience. The space opens and is filled with it, overflowing. I appreciate you sharing so freely.

My initial experience of awakening was completely unexpected, completely unlike anything I'd ever read or could have anticipated, and yet I somehow knew precisely what had transpired. I felt it deep in my bones, no room whatsoever for questions or doubt. On the other hand it was also disorienting, particularly in trying to carry on with my family and professional life. The lack of conceptual context created sort of a cognitive dissonance between the discursive "me" and the abiding nature. Reconciling and integrating the self-awareness with mundane responsibility and obligations became challenging at times. Priorities changed but I wasn't ready or willing to give up my family and professional obligations. I knew there was room and validity for both the relative and absolute. Years later I encountered a teacher who was able to help me with that integration. The beauty is that it happened almost completely non-verbally and non-conceptually. I came to him looking for help contextualizing and integrating my experience. He told me almost nothing in words but his manner, his openness, his warmth and genuine caring caused something in me to click in a very profound way, bridging the relative and absolute through openness of the heart.

I would suggest that it's more a testament to manitou, her fearlessness, and compassion for our members.

Different people need different things at different times in their lives. I acknowledge and respect everyone's experience and opinion on systems and teachers. I don't so much appreciate all the bitterness and name calling. My own experience with systems has been extremely favorable, both in martial arts and meditation. I've never encountered a system that did not encourage freedom of application and the student's personal responsibility to put in the time and energy to have direct, personal experience and use that towards independent growth. Perhaps it's just been my good fortune to connect with the right systems and teachers. I suspect that most of it is what we bring to the table ourselves. The word system to me is not a bad word. It connotes some degree of organization and consistency, something that removes a bit of the unnecessary trial and error. Life is too short for each of us not to share in the successes and mistakes of others for guidance. On the other hand, no question that we need to take personal responsibility and not be overly dependent or limited by teachers and systems. I've had profound experiences and seen remarkable improvements in my life and personal growth through my association with my martial arts and meditation teachers and lineages. I feel deep gratitude, devotion, and trust; and consider myself blessed to have had the good karma to come into contact with them. I don't know where my life would be otherwise, although I am certain it would not be as rich and satisfying as it is now. Just thought it was worth a few minutes to give an opposing point of view for anyone practicing with or interested in connecting with established systems and teachers. You need to use caution and common sense but there is real value out there.

The biggest challenge I’ve faced in my experience with meditation is coming to terms with myself. As we open more deeply to ourselves, all of our baggage and dysfunctional patterns come to light. It’s not all pretty and can be difficult to handle. Any propensities towards mental illness can likewise be unmasked. People who have weak sense of self or poor self esteem are particularly vulnerable. This is where a good teacher and support system are invaluable.

I wonder if we can know what others need? The things that have been the most relaxing for me have been spending time in nature and meditation. Physical exercise is very important for relaxation as is adequate and restful sleep. The other thing I'll mention is the value of helping others. There is no better feeling. This is something that could lead to some big and positive changes in how you feel about yourself and the world. Consider spending some of that free time helping others who are in need. There are lots of volunteer opportunities out there. If I was in your position, I would plan to spend a lot of time in nature and would find a teacher and begin a regular meditation practice. What a blessing to have a lot of free time and youth on your side. Most of all... enjoy! PS - do some research in your area regarding local teachers, you may be pleasantly surprised. If you can't find anyone, there are good options for online instruction. Feel free to PM me and I can make some recommendations

I’m curious what led you to conclude that it is impossible to cultivate concentrated awareness without positive emotion. In my training, such a state is achieved through zhiné, not through any sort of cultivation of emotion or positive feelings. Perhaps there are traditions that emphasize the emotional component, I’m interested to hear about them. Both positive and negative states of mind arise on and off the cushion while cultivating samadhi and both are treated similarly - we notice them and allow them to arise, remain, and depart as they will without interference. Samadhi leads to the ability to abide without influence or disturbance by transient states of mind. Once achieved one does experience a much deeper, more stable source of positive qualities like the four immeasurables. I do know cultivating positive states of mind is a path in that direction. I think what you are asking about is wonderful but not necessarily the path to samadhi, at least not in the teachings I’ve been exposed to. One thing I do to cultivate positivity is to open my heart, make eye contact, and smile at everyone I encounter. Good luck on your path.

So wonderful of you to share this beautiful realization and I'm so happy that you've had this experience! It's such a blessing.

I’m pleased that you are satisfied with your path. Peace

And what does that do for you? Laozi and Zhuangzi also didn't need the intellect. Misunderstanding is not a threat when the intellect is not engaged. Yes, I do feel comfortable with my approach. The difference is that I've engaged in Daoism, and other forms of spirituality, with both tools - the intellectual and the experiential. I've studied Daodejing, Zhuangzi, Liezi, and Neiye. I've also practiced Daoist meditation, qigong, and internal martial arts for an extended period of time. That doesn't make me anything special but I do have a broader perspective from working with both. You've only had the experience of one - the intellect. I have the frame of reference I need to judge the relative value of each for myself. You withhold that from yourself. In the end, you may be right and the experiential path may hold little value for you. Until you explore it with some degree of commitment, you will never know. That's my point. I don't mean to be overly critical, just trying to help you see there is more than intellectual study in Daoism. It is interesting that you started this thread to explore the value of experiential, non-intellectual practices, but then simply defend your position that there is no need for anything beyond the intellect. If that is your position, why even start the thread? We can only grow through being open. If we hold on to our opinions, there is no chance to learn anything new.

I think what you are describing, and what is being alluded to in the Kabbalah, is what is being recommended in the Mahayana tradition - the cultivation of bodhicitta. A slightly different perspective is that it is important that we first liberate ourselves before we can effectively help others. Otherwise, our own pain and confusion interferes with our ability to understand and provide what others need. Another good source on this topic is Anthony Demello. He offers some cautionary advice on generosity. It is easy to think too highly of ourselves for our charitable acts. Demello divides them into 3 categories and points out that nearly all charitable acts are fundamentally selfish. 1. Giving ourselves the pleasure of pleasing ourselves - mundane selfishness 2. Giving ourselves the pleasure of pleasing others - a bit more sophisticated but selfish nonetheless 3. Helping others to avoid a negative feeling about ourselves - the worst motivation in Demello's opinion I'm with you on the reading. There isn't much out there that captures my interest in terms of spiritual reading. There are a few exceptions - the books by my personal teacher, books by Demello, and spiritual poetry.

And what exactly does that get you? Is this the only point Laozi is making? What about the other 1400 texts that make up the Daozang? I disagree. Technology was not as well developed but thought and analysis were arguable more effective as there was no technology to rely upon. The achievements of the early Daoists, not to mention Buddhists and other cultures, in the absence of such technological support was profound. Human intellect was every bit as well developed then. The reason they weren't emphasized (appreciated is the wrong word) is because the true lessons of Daoism transcend the intellect. If you choose not to see that, it is your loss. It is nice to feel comfortable.

I don't see you that way but, if you are, at least it helps me know that I'm in good company! Probably, don't we all to some degree? Apology accepted and extended. Mine too, both from the subject and object side. I guess it means neither of us are yet fully liberated... Damn it! Perhaps not but it certainly is good for me! You are a grounding and stabilizing force for me here. You are genuine, sincere, and clear. A rarity. Best of luck and love to you Luke! While I'll miss your posts, I will continue to feel your support, warmth, and light whether I encounter you here or not. Knowing you has been good for me. Perhaps we'll have a chance to interact elsewhere or in the future. Big hugs and lots of kisses to you, my friend! PS - to whatever extent the political discussion here has caused some of my friends to leave, I say FUCK POLITICS and FUCK TRUMP. And a joyous and peaceful Christmas to you all...

I think this phenomenon is somewhat related to the practice of tögel and also related to sleep yoga. Tögel is a Dzogchen practice which helps us recognize that all experience arises from the mind. The practice involves resting in the nature of mind (non-dual meditative state) and using a variety of methods to allow the mind to spontaneously generate experience, be they visual, auditory, and so on. Common methods of practice include prolonged sequestration in total darkness (in our tradition it is a 7 week dark retreat), gazing at the open sky, gazing "at" the sun (not directly!).It may be a little different than resting in the afterglow of sleep as I think in that context we may experience a mixture of waking awareness and dream awareness. Have you practiced or trained in sleep yoga? In our tradition, it involves exploring the boundary between waking and sleeping awareness and cultivating the ability to consciously navigate the transition. Ultimately we can experience total awareness in deep, dreamless sleep. At very skillful levels the practitioner is said to be able to remain fully aware through the entire transition from waking to dreamless sleep.

For me personally, Qi is not something to be made sense of in an intellectual way. Making sense of Qi is like making sense of the flavor of a mango. You can read all you want but until you taste it yourself, the words are empty. And even after you've tasted it, how much intellect is necessary to analyze the experience? After having the experience, however, you can understand written descriptions and associate them with the experience. You first need that frame of reference created by direct experience. I suggest it is best approached through practice, like Qigong, Taijiquan, or Daoist Meditation. Even something as simply as "opening the belly" as I described earlier for you. Once you begin to have a taste of the direct experience, all of the classical writings suddenly make perfect sense. You can then play all kinds of intellectual game with it but you also recognize that the intellect has little value in matters of Qi. This is why Daoist sages like Zhuangzi devalued intellectual activity and emphasized the experiential.

I've only read a handful of posts on the last few pages. Is it any wonder that some people who may have some experience or knowledge limit their sharing here? I deeply respect my teacher and our lineage. The teachings I've received are rare and precious. The amount of time and energy I've invested, the sacrifices I've made make, not to mention those who came before making it possible for it to reach me... No way I'm going to subject all of this to the sort of disrespect, argument, and denigration I sometimes see here. We need to begin to respect each other and each others points of view if we are ever to open up to each other and benefit from that. We need to take ourselves a little less seriously (maybe a lot). We need to trust and have foundation for trust. It seems that many looking for the Way without a personal teacher, whether it be through study, ritual, or practices, think they will find it outside in something new they learn, in some line of scripture, some prayer, or some breathing or qigong technique. The first thing a teacher of the Way will show you is that it is deep in you already and will not be found anywhere else. It is in every word, thought, and action you take. It is the Way we relate to others, our surroundings, and to ourselves. Look anywhere else and you are simply indulging yourself in mind games. Sorry if I sound preachy but mixing priceless teachings with so much bullshit makes me sad.

I know several people who use these practice aids and really like them. I haven't used them myself more than having a quick listen. Recently Rinpoche has been encouraging students to listen to or sing a mantra you can find on his Facebook page. It's called the Sa Le Ö mantra - A Om Hung Ah A Kar Sa Le Ö A Yang Om Du This is the mantra in the Bön tradition that represents and supports connection to the nature of mind.

Timely that this thread was recently bumped. Next week I leave for a retreat with Rinpoche marking the 5th in a 5 year cycle of teachings on the Zhangzhung Nyengyud, one of the 3 Bön Dzogchen lineages. The retreat I referred to in 2013 at the beginning of this thread was my first with Rinpoche and was a precursor to the 5 year cycle that culminates next week. I'm not sure if the dream and sleep practices originated in the shamanic tradition or not but it would certainly make sense. I do know they are drawn from three primary sources - Ma Gyud (Mother Tantra), Zhangzhung Nyengyud (Oral Transmission of Zhangzhung), and Shardza Rinpoche (a very famous teacher from the early 20th century). I think you would find a lot of similarity between your Zen practice and the core practice Rinpoche teaches - Dzogchen. There are differences but the fundamental guidance is to 'leave everything just as it is.' Dzogchen literally means 'great perfection' referring to the idea that everything is fine just as it is, nothing is needed, nothing is out of place, nothing to be done but to be. While it sounds simple, the truth of it is quite elusive as you know doubt know as a Soto Zen practitioner. Nice to have you here Zen Pig. Warm regards

I had one of the most challenging days ever yesterday. So glad it was short!