doc benway

Yes, the waking state does seem different as it is what we live in and know best.

Death is necessary as resources and room in Earth are finite. Plus, things would get awfully dull and achy if we lived forever in these bodies...

Death is preprogrammed into the system. It's not an error, it's a natural part of the cycle. Once medical science addressed solved some of the issues that caused earlier deaths, other causes like cancer became predominant. The Earth has a life cycle as well. Maybe we are a part of that...

Not sure how that is relevant. While cancer may not be in the "greater blueprint" or "some kind of default" (in fact, it may be if you look at genetic markers for cancer), neither is human destruction of other life forms and damage to Earth's homeostasis, necessarily. There is the potential for us to behave differently, we just don't seem to be capable of collectively making that happen; even in the presence of overwhelmingly conclusive evidence of the harm we are doing and the magnitude of its consequences. Is there anything in relative experience that cannot be said to be rooted in deeper levels? Again, I'm just offering a simple observation from the perspective of a health care provider that human behavior relative to the Earth and other species has striking similarities to the behavior of malignant tumors in the body.

Good question - I've had some experience with both. Obsession to me feels more like something from outside grabbing and holding my attention. It may or may not be something I want to be engaged with but it can be quite challenging to let go. Devotion feels more like an engagement with something external that I generate internally rooted in feelings of trust, gratitude, and support. It requires energy to maintain and is easily released. Obsession is a little like skiing downhill and devotion is more like cross country for me.

To me the distinction is far less solid. Sleeping dream is a projection of local body/mind. Waking dream is a projection of non-local body/mind or absolute body/mind. I don't see one as necessarily more complicated than the other. It's just that the non-local projection of the body/mind it's much more difficult to see as illusory because we feel we are it, just as we feel we are it while actively dreaming during sleep. When we are able to readily wake up in the dream, or in a dreamless sleep state, and maintain that awareness in dream or sleep in a stable fashion, it has a profound effect on how "real" it feels both during the dream and during waking.

Zen Pig will hopefully respond as I like reading his thoughts, but I just thought I'd suggest that the answer to your question lies in the full quotation -

@3bob - I was referring to a specific medical analogue. Cancer is when a single cell line (species - human) begins to reproduce unchecked and with no regard for anything but itself. It chokes out other, healthy tissues and cells around it (reference the articles above), damaging the host (climate change, pollution). It eventually outgrows its own nutritional supply (water shortages, food shortages) and undergoes necrosis. Ultimately it kills its own host, like the scorpion and the otter - that is its nature... While it's certainly not perfect, in my mind it is a fairly accurate and apt analogy. I don't presume to know what the Earth Soul thinks, in fact words like think may not apply at that level of intelligence - I really have no clue. I'm more focused on the human perspective as that is the more familiar. Although I do think that much of our current intellectual, psychological, and emotional negativity is a direct expression of the pain and sadness of our Mother.

Yes, you make a good point. I will be more specific. You can be attached to meditative experiences... nyams, not so much to skillful meditation itself. Here is a bit more info about attachment to the nyams gsum - http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Three_experiences Certainly not something to "worry" about but good to be aware of, IMO.

Anything can become an attachment, including meditation. This is important to be aware of. When and if to release it depends on many factors and is one reason why it is so valuable to have an experienced teacher.

Not to worry, it's not in my power or my desire to see or cause human extinction. Unfortunately, it's likely the only thing that will restore homeostasis to our mother Earth...

Humanity has become a cancer. The healthiest option for mother Earth would be human extinction. It would be fascinating to get a peak 100 years into the future.

True that thoughts are what they are, not inherently good or bad. It is our judgement and reaction to thoughts that give rise to labels and feelings of good and bad. I certainly have thoughts that lead to a negative feeling, dysfunctional patterns, stalled progress, reactivity, and so forth. For me, that is what makes thoughts negative - my reaction or my judgement. Once I notice, most are very easy to allow to liberate, some much more sticky. The key is to notice before going down that well-trodden path.

I think there is truth in your disagreement. My opinion is biased by my own experience with drugs. I think they have a role in showing us that our conditioned perspective and experience are limiting and partial. They can also show us subtle associations that may be overlooked in our sobriety, which is often confused and distracted. I've had occasional powerful and truly insightful experiences. My negativity is a result of my own challenges in dealing with drugs, cannabis in particular. If used as a sacrament, I think there is some value. My tendency is too use it in an abusive and addictive fashion when it is readily available. That's on me and something I'm overcoming through meditation. There's nothing inherently wrong with frequent use of cannabis but it becomes a dysfunctional and distracting influence in my own life. The growth I've experienced through a dedicated meditation practice is far more powerful and transformative than any growth I've experienced through drug use with a few rare exceptions. I wish you well in discovering its role in your own life. I don't think it's static but rather something that will evolve over time. That's been my experience.

I don't see negative thought as being our "original nature" but rather a symptom of conditioning and "progress." Some random thoughts - To a certain degree, the thinking mind is responsible for recognizing and assessing threats to health and survival and finding solutions or preventative measures. I don't see this as negative, but positive. This essential function becomes distorted and dysfunctional. In our current environment, there are infinite perceived threats and immersion in media reinforces and magnifies them out of proportion. We are focused on the artificial and dubious threats and distracted from the true hazards that are eating away at our health and well being, by the political-industrial-media complex. The mind gets overwhelmed with negativity. This is on top of being conditioned since birth to be dependent on the approval of others. No wonder we are filled with feelings of inadequacy, anger, fear, and dissatisfaction. We have been disconnected from our "original nature" through conditioning and modernization. We identify with what we are not - things like our jobs, possessions, ideology, roles, and our physical body, and this leads to attachment and aversion, never allowing us lasting peace. We have been separated from our mother Earth and have lost connection to her rhythms, her lessons, and her support. We have been separated from our siblings, each other, and feel alone, separate, isolated; this being compounded by looking for connection through social media and other forms of artificial stimulation which lack nourishment, much like processed food stuffs. I think the antidotes are those things which allow us to reconnect. We need to reconnect with each other through personal relationships to restore a sense of supportive community. While social media can provide this to a very limited degree, it is essential to spend more time connecting with others in meaningful ways in the flesh. We need to reconnect to nature; spend time in the outdoors away from the noise, stink, and harshness of the man-made, and open up to our environment, relearning her lessons, learning how to listen and feel, regaining an appreciation for the inherent value of all forms of life and sentience. Finally, we need to liberate ourselves from false identification and from our addiction to approval. We are ultimately far more than any labels or roles we can apply to ourselves. All of those are useful parts of our lives but they are simply parts. When we over identify with them, we cause ourselves unnecessary pain and negativity. Opening to the fullness and richness of our unlimited potential allows those negative thoughts to dissolve and allows our natural creativity and "original nature," which is joyful and content, to shine.

I really resonate with this theory and video (I saw it when you first released it a while back, I believe). I'd take it a step farther to say that real self, that entire organism, doesn't end with the bag of skin that contains our organs. We have never been separated from the environment for an instant, the self includes that environment for each of us. I am as dependent on our atmosphere as on the lungs that make use of it, same with food, sunlight, etc... The fact that we are mobile, as compared to a tree, makes us feel separate from the environment but that is an illusion. Not sure if that has any value with respect to your theory but I look forward to hearing more about the project, it's fascinating!

Wonderful to hear from you Otis! Things are the same and totally different for me. Wrestling with familiar demons but winning a little more consistently. Deepening my relationships with my family and loved ones but still not making as much progress in some areas as I'd like. After many months of stuttering and being fooled by subtle conceptual interference, my meditation practice is strong and consistent. My children are both engaged in work and school that emphasize helping others - one the elderly, the other children. That makes me feel extremely grateful. A goal of mine has been to create an accessible program that will support colleagues and people dealing with chronic pain using simple and secular meditation techniques. It's a work in progress but I haven't given up on it. Warmest regards and I would love to hear more about your projects!

Sitting in awareness is meditation, I suspect you knew that was somehow healing and transforming. Small doses of LSD can be fun, if you didn't know that you wouldn't have had the LSD in the first place. Same with the fact that our sense of time is related to the body... we grow and age, get impatient, etc... I point this out because it's my opinion and experience that drugs often give us the impression that they are providing some valuable insights when we generally do not need drugs for that. They just enhance and distort sensory perception. With proper guidance they can provide some healing properties but it's mostly entertainment, IMO. Meditation progress should not be measured in time but in depth. Masters generally recommend starting with frequent, short periods of excellent quality practice and slowly building. If you are not already doing so, I would highly recommend getting some expert guidance in your practice. Meditation can yield profound results but when practiced without guidance, the results are usually superficial. Meditation should not require "strong determination," as that degree of force is anathema to what the meditative state is. There should be a degree of playfulness, relaxation, and ultimately effortlessness. I've had lots of similar experiences. For me, the conclusion is that the drugs are a distraction and generally take us in the wrong direction. Strong Determination Sitting does not seem to be the way to go - I've seen many people injured by forced sitting such as in Goenke style Vipassana retreats. Mostly the effects of the drug magnifying insights that were already there and readily accessible without drugs. At least that's been my experience. I hope I don't come off as too critical.

I think this is a part of the maturation process. We have enough peak and trough experiences and realize they are fleeting. Chasing them doesn't get us very far. I don't think that is nihilism but wisdom (not in the Buddhist sense). The meaning of trying to find meaning is related to where we are looking. We are always looking outwards. Meaning is found inwards. We are so much more than our senses and thoughts recognize and at some level we feel something is lacking. So we look and look and don't find it because we're looking in the wrong direction. Masters generally don't feel a deep sense of satisfaction, some for sure, but not enough to end the searching. It is precisely the feeling that they aren't quite good enough that pushes them to commit to mastery. If they do succeed in reaching their goal or limit, they will move on to the next project. You will never "get there" because, once again, you are looking in the wrong direction. It is absolutely fine and wonderful to try and master something but that will not fulfill the craving. The craving will be filled when you look deep enough inward and get full appreciation for what you are and what ultimate potential is there. When the realization is there that you already have everything you need just as you are, then the craving will ease and eventually cease. Just my $.02

I started in the deep stuff!

Not enough to trust fully. Limited fragments which could be interpreted in a variety of ways. After a lifetime of scientific conditioning my opening has been relatively guarded despite a few quantum leaps. The skeptic clings to my shoulder while the guru rests at the crown!

Good question, I can't say that I have a definitive opinion and it is not something within my realm of experience. As I'm sure you're aware, Buddhists posit the alayavijnana which is the vehicle of individual continuity but for me it seems to be a subtle exception to my experience and understanding of emptiness which is useful insofar as it allows emphasis on karma as a motivational tool. It's not something I simply accept as a belief, nor do I disbelieve. It simply doesn't affect my life or practice one way or the other. Precisely why I chose the example of rebirth in my earlier post. From the absolute perspective, an experience of more pervasive 'self-identification' sort of negates its relevance for me. I'd love to hear from someone more knowledgable (Apech?) in terms of how they reconcile the two concepts. Hmm, I hesitate to posit "one" general lifeforce. There's a reason for the use of the term "nondual." On the other hand, the doctrine of sunyata and dependent origination clearly teaches that sentient beings are not independent. Even modern biology has done away with the concept of independent sentient beings. There has never existed a sentient being independent of the totality of its environment. Describing independent beings is a convention of personal, relative experience and convenience. At the end of the day, rather than be pinned down on one side or the other of this age old debate (which for me is frankly tiresome at this point), I prefer to simply know that I don't know in a conceptual sense but know to a limited degree in an experiential sense.

It seems to me that what determines whether a teaching becomes dogma is more related to the believer and institution than to the nature or translation of the teaching itself.

My perspective of rebirth is very personal and rudimentary. It starts with emptiness. The me I experience in life is a construct dependent on causes and conditions, not an independent entity. It is not that which is reborn. This seems to be the stumbling block for many, it certainly was for me at one point. As a living being I affect my environment through karma, as it affects me. Those effects persist beyond the death of this body and mind. Those better versed in the language of Buddhist sutra and the Vedas can speak far more accurately and eloquently about that which carries the karmic traces forward. I'm not able to do that effectively nor do I relate to the idiosyncratic language and concepts. Rather, I consider the factors that make sense to my life experience (genetics, environmental factors, interpersonal factors, and so on) and I am open to the fact that there are many more factors one could potentially describe that are beyond my understanding. The birth of each new life is, to me, rebirth as it is yet another manifestation of the lifeforce, the undifferentiated "I-ness" which manifests in all sentience. Each new birth is impacted by those karmic factors in ways which are far too complicated to predict or understand fully and yet the effects are very clearly present. That's more or less how I see it at this point. I can't say how reasonable or accurate it is, nor how consistent it is with any of the ancient traditions, but it works for me.

I don’t see individual positions as mutually exclusive, just descriptions of how different parts of the elephant feel... My experience is such and such and I am open to other positions which may not comport with my own. I respect your perspective as accurate through your eyes and equally legitimate as my own. I accept the Vedic position as credible from its unique cultural and temporal perspective and the Buddhist view as equally valid from the perspective of one for whom that position makes sense. No position can capture truth, just point to it from our individual islands. This is at the heart of my understanding of emptiness, in fact. A good illustration of this is individual descriptions of deep meditative experience. One may describe great openness, another as brilliant clarity, yet another boundless joy, or profound peace. This is not because they are describing different realities or that one is right and another wrong. It’s because each is feeling what was previously blocked and so that is what comes through most dramatically fresh and new. Gotta run right now but would be happy to discuss rebirth at some point.