doc benway

I don't feel that I disagree with either really, it's more a matter of not simply accepting conceptual positions as truth. In my mind there is no such thing as Hindu or Buddhist thought, there is only human thought that may align with Hindu or Buddhist positions to one degree or another. Our individual positions are unique and far more complex and flexible than any dogma. I'm probably not expressing myself very clearly but that's what I'm trying to say. I am slowly cultivating my own understanding through a lot of practice and a little study. That understanding is mostly in alignment with the teachings I'm currently following but I'm not a believer or dis-believer. They can certainly be in disagreement, although I don't really think they disagree in a meaningful way, only in terms of superficial labels. As mentioned, I feel they are both pointing in the direction of love and connection in their own idiosyncratic ways.

While it has been very valuable for me to follow teachings, I don't take them as dogma. I prefer to relate to them as a guide to practice and living. Understanding can be approached through concepts but ultimately confidence is born of direct realization. Such direct realization is generally not expressible by and far more powerful and convincing than words. I would be very comfortable claiming to follow a teacher or tradition and not accept all conceptual elements of that tradition. A good example in my own practice and study is reincarnation. What most people tend to think of as reincarnation never sat well with me, particularly with my understanding of emptiness, and I've never simply accepted it as a belief. Over time, I've come to understand what I prefer to label rebirth in a way that is consistent with my own paradigm but that understanding is particular to my own circumstances and proclivities, and may be at odds with Bön and Buddhist dogma. That gives me no pause. I am equally comfortable embracing elements of disparate traditions to whatever degree they support positive growth in my practice, namely elements from Christianity, Judaism, Daoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Bön. All are guiding us in the direction of love and openness, each in its own unique and beautiful way. I'm not afraid of contradictions and will once again offer a beautiful quotation from a Celtic poet and spiritual teacher.* At the end of the day what counts for me and those around me is my own experience and how I live my life, not conceptual labels. Over time, as my experience and understanding deepen, it is likely that my disagreements with those conceptual elements will diminish. I have a deep trust in the teachings I currently follow as well as the different teachings I've studied in the past. Nevertheless, I feel no obligation to simply believe all tenets or label myself a devout follower. * "And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you."

If the mind is something other than the Self, that would be a dualistic position, would it not? Not sure what “that” you are referring to here. That would assume we have a perfect understanding of the teachings. I certainly can’t claim that. We may from time to time having differing perspectives but [spelling edit] I wouldn’t conflate that with irreconcilable differences in the teachings. While there may be differences in the teachings, it’s my opinion and experience that reconciliation can be achieved through practice.

Not different so much as a matter of what we identify with. Mind is a limited manifestation of the Nature of Mind like a wave is a limited manifestation of water. When we identify with the mind we are moving, searching, arriving, and departing like a wave. When we identify with the essence, water, there is nowhere to go, we are always already that. The tricky part is what it means to identify with essence rather than a manifestation. It’s not an intellectual exercise or something to be understood. It is the core practice of Dzogchen. In the teachings I follow it is what is referred to as the view, meditation, and conduct, or resting in the Nature of Mind. The fruition is the manifestation of that and a essentially a measure of whether we are hitting the target.

Agreed, the mind is not other than its essence like a wave is not other than water. The mind is a manifestation of its essence. The safeguard against grasping at the essence is a proper understanding of the view.

I get what's being suggested in the OP and it's a valid and worthwhile perspective. I don't mean to denigrate that position. Reading it, I noticed my habitual tendency to look at the contrary position, which in itself was instructive; and I'd like to share what came up. My perspective is that the "goal post" and the process, which in the teachings I follow is referred to as resting in the Nature of Mind, is alway perfectly clear and still. It has never moved, it is changeless essence, unborn, undying, boundless, centerless; stillness, silence, and spaciousness... The mind is that which is always moving, expanding, contracting, searching, growing, departing, and arriving. When we allow that one to fully rest and gain confidence and stability with that, it may settle into it's essence, like silt settling in still water, from which it has never for a moment departed.

Often our actions in attempting to help others are compromised by our own pain, projection, and ignorance. One of the most valuable things we can offer others is simply our presence and space for them to live their lives. If we are open enough to listen and hear what others need without our own confusion getting in the way, then we are able to truly help. More often we offer (or impose on them) what we think they need and it may be misguided and counterproductive. Even if it seems obvious to us that we are "doing good" it is easy to be mistaken. In the long run, I think we can do far more good for others, and the world, if we clear our own confusion first and cultivate the ability to listen and hear others without our personal bias and ignorance getting in the way.

I think this has a lot to do with the effect of anonymity on human interaction. Beyond anonymity there also appear to profound effects on human interaction and communication related to technology in a more pervasive sense. Finally, I believe that many of the people exhibiting such behavior in public fora are drawn to philosophical and spiritual subjects at an intellectual level rather than an experiential one. I suspect these individuals are more prone to reactive behavior than committed practitioners.

To me, will power feels like demanding and intention feels more like an invitation.

Nice to have you back CT! You've been missed... བཀྲ་ཤིས་བདེ་ལེགས།

This quote seems apropos: All the various types of teachings and spiritual paths are related to the different capacities of understanding that different individuals have. There does not exist, from an absolute point of view, any teaching which is more perfect or effective than another. A teaching’s value lies solely in the inner awakening which an individual can arrive at through it. If a person benefits from a given teaching, for that person that teaching is the supreme path, because it is suited to his or her nature and capacities. There’s no sense in trying to judge it as more or less elevated in relation to other paths to realization. ~ Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

The word “things” was used for expediency and I disagree with your perspective. The debates will no doubt continue. The good news is these conceptual matters have little to do with practice so it doesn’t really matter much one way or another. The irony is that if the Self has independent, inherent existence as you suggest, then it does fit into the category of a thing...

Emptiness does not mean without substance or soul. It refers more to the notion of things not existing independently, without being inter-related to and dependent on everything else. Soul is an important concept in Bön, although it’s meaning is nothing like what we think of in Abrahamic terms.

Apech nailed it but perhaps slightly different words can add something. And at the end of the day, we’ve discussed this before and I don’t intend to try to convince anyone of anything. We must see things in a way that make sense to us based on our unique conditioning and proclivities. The yin yang symbol, taiji, is very consistent with and representative of various Buddhist principles and truths. Not surprising as there is profound interconnection between. Buddhism and Daosim, particularly in China and no Daosim system can be said to be without some Buddhist and Confucian influence. Granted, the symbol derives from Daosim and has a different focus, as do Daosim and Buddhism in general; but in my view they have far more in common than in opposition depending on your interpretation, of course. Thoughts and emotions are not considered non-existent nor are they considered an illusion. They are a part of our direct human experience and are a part of the relative and manifest truth of our experience -yang. Their absolute nature and the nature of all experience, on the other hand, is described in the Bön teachings as emptiness (you cannot hold a thought in your hand), clarity (they occur in awareness), and warmth or energy (they have the capacity to manifest) - yin. What is considered an illusion is the sense of a defined, tangible self. The self manifests differently in relation to circumstances. We have many selves based on the specific relationship we are referring to. Awareness mistakenly identifies with whatever particular self is active in any given situation, that is attachment. It feels as if that is who we are but that is only one of many facets, in reality it is always in flux and always dependent on circumstances, this is dependent origination. Non-attachment or self-empty refers to the direct insight into this mis-identification which is the root of our problems. Without that attachment life remains rich and fully experiential, even more so, because we are free to feel and respond differently as we express the full potential of our fundamental nature - openness, awareness, and unbounded potential. Being logical and having positions is real and necessary in life. But most would agree it is better to not be too attached to our positions. They are always able to change given the right circumstances. Feeling and living that freedom to be flexible is the path. It is analogous with, dare I say identical to, wu wei - the ability to permit unrestricted manifestation of Dao (in the Bön paradigm, space/awareness/warmth) without interference or rigidity. Edit - What I’m referring to here is informed by Daoist and Bön Dzogchen teachings (the path of self-liberation). This is a little different from the Tantric path of transformation that Apech is pointing out. 2nd edit - this has relatively little value as a belief or concept. When experienced directly through practice and integration in life, it is powerful juice!

In Buddhism and Bön, there is no instruction to believe that something does not exist. That is an error in understanding, the error of nihilism. In the tradition I follow, there is no discarding either. Discarding is an error. There is awareness, open experiencing, and allowing without fixating. For me, this second paragraph is far closer to my practice than your first. Working with the body, using the subtle body, becoming more fully in touch with what it means to be human. Opening to all experience without limiting or fixating.

Don't believe everything you hear and I would suggest to be a little less concerned with enlightenment. It's a distraction. No worries. Enjoy life to the fullest and, if it calls to you, enjoy meditation practice also. Feeling pleasure has nothing to do with desire. Desire is the attachment to pleasure, not the experience of pleasure. Attachment to the pleasure is what spoils it, creates the fear of losing it, creates the painful longing for it when it's not there, the need. Agreed, there is a reason why you see realized masters and images of Buddhas laughing and thoroughly enjoying something as simple as a sip of tea or a breath of fresh air. Equanimity is not about whether we experience joy or suffering, it is more about our response to the experience. Can we let it move through us and allow us to remain undisturbed or do we hold on to it greedily or push it away in fear or anger. Don't worry about being bored because you lack suffering, Boredom does not come from realization, quite the opposite. As one connects more deeply to the source, life becomes absolutely delightful and full of richness and freshness. Boredom is the pining for stimulation related to a narrow focus on what we think we need. I would suggest not to be too concerned with the "finish line." Focusing on enlightenment is far more distracting than helpful. If your life is fine as it is, live it! If not, look for a practice that resonates with you and engage in it. As you engage in the practice over time, see if there is benefit in your life. If so, continue. If not let go and move on. This takes time to see, not a week or even a month. Focusing on a conceptual model of something labeled nibbana or enlightenment is just the mind playing its games, searching for something out there somewhere that it thinks will solve its problems. You won't find that, whatever you think that is. But there is something inside that can provide enormous support, happiness, equanimity, love, everything the mind is looking for. And it's not at all what you think it is because it cannot be defined or captured by the moving mind. Good luck in your search! Disclaimer - I am not anywhere close to "enlightenment" but I do have a practice that has helped me to transform my life in tangible, important ways. As I have let go to some small degree of the three poisons (attachment, aversion, ignorance) and had some small taste of the fruits of practice, there has been no lessening of happiness or pleasure, quite the opposite. A metaphor comes to mind of a bird of prey locked in a small cage since birth with a source of processed food and water. She worries that if she were to leave the cage she would no longer have the cornmeal to eat, never knowing she is surrounded by deep woods and plains, mountains, rivers, and valleys rich with tasty animals and sights and sounds beyond her imagination.

I’ve had a similar experience. I used to read voraciously, now very selectively. I follow no news and rarely read fiction. I have maintained an interest in poetry and periodically refer to the core texts of my spiritual tradition as well as books and transcripts from my teacher, all of which are very supportive of my practice. It seems to be a natural transition as being distracted and entertained loses it’s primacy in our lives as a consequence of spiritual growth.

Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche is in poor physical health and likely to soon transition. He has been one of the most important sources of authentic Dzogchen teachings in the West and has directly or indirectly touched many of our lives. I'd like to share this Long Life Prayer for him, recently written by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche ཆོས་ཀྱི་རྒྱལ་པོའི་ཞབས་བརྟན་གསོལ་འདེབས་སྨོན་ལམ། Long Life Prayer for Dharmaraja. འགྱུར་མེད་དབྱིངས་ལས་གཡོས་མེད་ཆོས་ཀྱི་རྒྱལ། ། དགོངས་རྟོགས་མཐའ་དང་བྲལ་བ་ནམ་མཁའི་ཀློང་། ། འཕྲིན་ལས་ཐོགས་པ་མེད་པའི་ནོར་བུའི་འོད། ། དུས་མཐའི་མུན་པ་སེལ་བའི་རིན་པོ་ཆེ། ། Unwavering Dharma King, from the unchanging space of your knowledge and realizations beyond limit in the expanse of the sky ( Namkhai ), Your enlightened activities are the constant shining Jewel ( Norbu ) Banishing darkness for all times, O Precious One (Rinpoche) འཁོར་བའི་ནད་གདོན་འཇོམས་པའི་བདུད་རྩི་སྨན། ། ཐར་པའི་ལམ་གྱི་བར་ཆོད་ཟློག་པའི་གྲོགས། ། མ་རིག་སྨག་རུམ་གཞིལ་བའི་ཡེ་ཤེས་འོད། ། ཞབས་པད་བརྟན་ཅིང་མཛད་འཕྲིན་མཐར་ཕྱིན་ཤོག ། You are the medicine which eliminates disease and obstructions, You are the friend who clears away obstacles to freedom. You are wisdom’s light, removing the darkness of ignorance. May you live long, and completely accomplish your enlightened activities. མི་མཐུན་རྐྱེན་ལས་སྒྲོལ་བའི་སྟོབས་ལྡན་ཕ། ། ལུས་སྲོག་ནུས་པ་གསོ་བའི་བྱམས་ལྡན་མ། ། ཉམས་རྟོགས་བོགས་འདོན་བསྐྱེད་པའི་དགེ་བའི་སྤུན། ། ཞབས་པད་བརྟན་ཅིང་མཛད་འཕྲིན་མཐར་ཕྱིན་ཤོག ། You are the powerful father who frees us from negative circumstances You are the kind mother who nourishes our body and life force. You are the Dharma brother who supports and increases our insights and realizations May you live long and completely manifest your enlightened activities. རྟག་ཏུ་ཉམས་མེད་སྙིང་གི་ལྡུམ་རའི་དབུས། ། བཅོས་མིན་དད་པའི་མེ་ཏོག་དཀར་པོ་འདི། ། བརྩེ་ཆེན་ཆུ་ཡིས་གསོས་ཏེ་ཁྱེད་ལ་འབུལ། ། ཞབས་པད་བརྟན་ཅིང་མཛད་འཕྲིན་མཐར་ཕྱིན་ཤོག ། In the unblemished garden of our heart center, This white flower of genuine devotion, Is sustained by the water of great love; this I offer to you, May you live long and completely manifest your enlightened activities. ཀ་དག་གཡོ་བ་མེད་པའི་ཀློང་དབྱིངས་ན། ། ལྷུན་གྲུབ་འགག་པ་མེད་པའི་ཡེ་ཤེས་རྒྱས། ། འོད་གསལ་རྫོགས་པ་ཆེན་པོའི་གདམས་པ་སྤེལ། ། ཞབས་པད་བརྟན་ཅིང་མཛད་འཕྲིན་མཐར་ཕྱིན་ཤོག ། In the space and expanse of unwavering primal purity The spontaneous presence of continuous wisdom increases And there you spread the message of clear light Dzogpa Chenpo, May you live long and completely manifest your enlightened activities ཅེས་དུས་མཐའི་རྫོགས་ཆེན་རྣལ་འབྱོར་པ་ཆོས་རྒྱལ་ནམ་མཁའི་ནོར་བུ་རིན་པོ་ཆེའི་སྐུ་ཚེའི་ཞབས་བརྟན་གསོལ་ཞིང་མཛད་འཕྲིན་མཐའ་རུ་ཕྱིན་པའི་དྲི་མེད་སྨོན་ལམ་འདི་ཉིད་གང་གི་ཞབས་འོག་པ་བསྟན་འཛིན་དབང་རྒྱལ་གྱིས་ལྷོ་ཀོ་རི་ཡའི་རྒྱལ་ས་སོལ་ལ་འགྲུལ་བཞུད་སྐབས་(༢༠༡༨།༩།༡༧) གསོལ་བ་ཕུར་ཚུགས་སུ་བཏབ་པའོ།། །། This is our sincere prayer. Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche Composed in Seoul, the capital of South Korea, on the occasion of my journey there, on September 17, 2018. Translated September 21, 2018 by Steven Goodman

The purpose of daily practice is multi-fold - it engenders familiarity, skill, and habit. It helps to interrupt the status quo and replaces more mundane, less beneficial activity, with spiritually nurturing and supportive activity. That is the point of meditation, depending on your tradition of course. The mind never gets a rest. It is always working and the majority of its effort and activity is wasteful. Meditation allows us to attend to the mind like we would attend to the body. It allows us to learn how to rest and open the mind in new ways. Yes, if one is feeling burnout related to spiritual practice an occasional break or holiday is fine and supportive. Stoically ignoring these obstacles is not the method in most traditions. They are worked with in a variety of ways. If ignoring them is the only tool you have right now, it's fine to use that. With training and practice, you will use other tools. Yes, I think a daily practice is very valuable in most spiritual traditions. We wash our body daily (most of us), we take care of our teeth, gums, nails, hair, etc... Take a few minutes and attend to the mind, it is worthy of that much at least. Over time, formal practice sessions become less important and integration of the practice into our daily life takes priority. At that point, it is no longer about a daily practice but an hourly or moment to moment practice.

This is beautiful, thank you!

Brings to mind a beautiful little saying... We don't see things the way they are, we see them the way we are.

With respect, I disagree. If this were true, your post would end here... The rest of the post is thoughts, ruminations of the inner self, stories of "me"... just stories of a different sort. When we truly dis-identify with the self, there is spaciousness and infinite possibility, not a me looking to identify with others' perceptions and expectations, not a me feeling sad and purposeless. There is openness and warmth and limitless energy.

Beautiful, thank you

Good points Well said, I always appreciate your input You may well be correct, I know nothing about what’s been going on in the Hindu discussions. I was projecting my own stuff. Thanks for pointing that out.

I applaud dwai for bringing this up. Far too many critics here and far too little open-mindedness, caring, and support for each other. I disagree with you Kar3n - I see contemptuous posts on a regular basis invalidating and denigrating the experiences and paths of others. They are generally people projecting their own negative experience (or inexperience) onto others. Nothing wrong with pointing out when such posts are coming from a place of bitterness or ignorance rather than experience or authority.