doc benway

Very true statements. Equally true for me that free people can still learn and grow through the guidance and example of others.

No problem, it just felt like you were turning the discussion ad hominem. Perhaps I mis-interpreted, it may be my own projection. Issue? No Feeling? Yes, compassion and concern. Two of them were extremely upset - turmoil in the office, conflict between several partners, two vented to me several times. It was painful to watch. And over a few little trinkets and keepsakes... No, as has happened frequently regarding this topic, you are applying a practical instruction as a ranking or judgement of the general public. I was responding to a question about application in real life. Superior, middling, and inferior are meant to represent where we are on our own path, not so much comparing ourselves to others. We can never really know where others are, nor does it do much for us, we need to focus on our own progress.

It just sort of felt that way Peace

Not superior, I just didn't get as angry. A few of them were really angry. It didn't bother me that much. No big deal - Why the animosity?

I love synchronicity... TWR just posted two teachings on Facebook Live that are related to this topic. The first is a guided meditation on healing pain - https://www.facebook.com/tenzinwangyalrinpoche/videos/10156902426577437/ The second is on the wisdom of emptiness - https://www.facebook.com/tenzinwangyalrinpoche/videos/10156902598272437/ They are related

Yes and yes It makes more sense to me too and gives you an idea of my level of mastery! HaH Similar to above, it is all about depth of insight. It’s really about interconnectedness, not judgement. I think better to just let go and rest in the moment. The other stuff is maybe the reflection later. No better practice than compassionate driving! Maybe compassionate eating...

After reading Rex's warning above, I was feeling some concern, some doubt - even thought of deleting my posts. There's real truth to what he says and it's certainly not my intention to hurt anyone. This post makes me glad we arrived here. My own "break-throughs" have come through deep trauma and pain as well. My love to you and your beautiful family. _/\__/\__/\_

My apologies Perhaps I should stop here. I appreciate your posts. Please remember, I never suggested that victims are responsible. This is not advice for counseling of trauma victims. The teachings suggest that the dedicated yogi take responsibility - there's a difference. That's my audience and I like to think that is why we are here. Not many other places to discuss this stuff. Am I out of line?

The challenging parts are letting go of different manifestations of ignorance... mistaking who we are at an absolute level with who we are at a relative level: over-identifying with the thoughts, the body, our projections, our emotions, etc... The next challenge is consistency and dedication. Next challenge is integration into life.

Having that profound experience of connection is extremely valuable but then the work continues. It takes a lifetime to integrate that experience into our practical lives. One thing to realize, IMO, is that both the relative and absolute perspectives are equally valid and equally important. Arguably, for most of us, most of the time, the relative truth is what counts so that's where we should focus our attention. There are practices designed to try to induce an experience of the absolute. In fact, I think this instruction we're discussing is part of that. But the tricky part is that such an experience either happens or doesn't. I don't think we have control of that. That's why it's often referred to as a blessing or a gift. In terms of integrating this into our lives, my teacher likens us to a flame. When our flame is small, it needs protection. We practice what we can, what we feel comfortable with, what supports us. We don't want our flame to be extinguished by too strong a gust of wind. As we have deeper realization and stability we can subject ourselves to stronger gusts. When our flame is like a bonfire, even a strong wind will feed it rather than blow it out. At that point we seek out and thrive on challenging situations but it's not a good idea to overestimate our abilities and do that too soon.

A reminder that what I am offering here is instruction to dedicated spiritual practitioners, more specifically Dzogchen practitioners. This is not something all people can or should live by. It is something that cultivates enormous personal confidence and liberation but only if the practitioner is ready for it and has a karmic connection. Stosh and Mudfoot make important and valid points. The frame of reference from which they are speaking is true or most of us for most of our lives. From that place, this teaching may not be useful. That does not invalidate the teaching but does remind us of the importance of acknowledging that it is not for everyone at every point in their lives. With an interest and an open mind, it can become useful if one invests some time and patience in digging deeper into the concept and into oneself. But again, it is not for everyone - we all need different things in our lives. As I mentioned earlier, we can easily think of extreme examples (child abuse, rape) where applying this sort of teaching is extraordinarily challenging and may even seem offensive. That is not the place to start if one is interested in exploring this concept, it is the endpoint one may achieve when one has reached the level of all experience being of one taste - another very deep and elusive teaching in the Dzogchen cycles.

1) Yes! 7) Wow indeed, ever read the Neiye? That's another big WOW 11) "Turning the light around" is a perfectly precise and profound pith instruction, none better. For the right student, it's all you need. 12) I'm familiar with the text but I will decline to rate or rank it, I wouldn't presume to judge the Daoist literature. If I find something that doesn't make sense or that I don't "like" it is a reflection of my lack of understanding, not a fault of the text. At least that's my approach to these classics. They offer a lifetime of study and contemplation and if I stay open, I may well understand in the future.

Yes, that book was my first introduction to his teachings and Bön. I came from many years of Daoist practice before that. Yes Blame is usually defined as assigning responsibility for a fault or a wrong. In the Dzogchen teachings the core message is that there is no fault, there is no wrong, everything is precisely as it is. Nothing is out of place. Dzogchen means great perfection, that describes our natural state. So blame is irrelevant although responsibility for the practitioner is paramount. I'm a beginner so take what I say with a grain of salt, but that's my interpretation. Once again, there is no blame here. Karma is simply an observation, not a force or entity to bear blame or responsibility. I look at it more like a mathematical equation or physical process. Actions lead to consequence. Right and wrong, good and bad, blame and fault... these are simply judgements we assign based on our perspective and conditioning. Such judgement doesn't exist outside of the mind. This seems to me to be similar to Chapter 5 of the Dao De Jing that discusses straw dogs. No better field of practice than driving! Someone cuts me off or aggressively pushes in front, rather than looking at it as their fault and getting angry or aggressive, I try to see it as my responsibility to anticipate their maneuver, their need, and accommodate them. I recently had the insight to try and drive in such a way as to always try to make the other driver feel comfortable. Someone was inappropriately instructed to throw away personal belongings of several people where I work this morning, including my own. Several people were furious and gave them both a hard time. I see it as my failure for leaving things piled up rather than storing things appropriately or taking them home. Then I look at it as an opportunity to let go of these things, whatever they may be and move on. In general, when someone makes a mistake or causes me a problem, I do my best to look at how I could have anticipated or prevented it rather than blame or punish them for their actions. After all, they are just the agent of the universe in action. It puts me in mind of Zhuangzi's parable The Empty Boat. It's getting late and I've got an early morning. If some more specific examples occur to me I'll try to post some more tomorrow. Good night _/\_

Yungdrung Bön

Done

I practice Yungdrung Bön

It seems to me that Chapter 5 of the DDJ would have us look at this a bit differently: Nature is unkind: It treats the creation like sacrificial straw-dogs. The Sage is unkind: He treats the people like sacrificial straw-dogs. How the universe is like a bellows! Empty, yet it gives a supply that never fails; The more it is worked, the more it brings forth. By many words is wit exhausted. Rather, therefore, hold to the core. (trans. Lin Yutang)

I think your priorities are in the right place. I also think your approach is already building a relationship with this idea. One last thing about it, for me it takes the form of a practical instruction more than a philosophy. I think there is a difference there.

Yes, it does mean precisely that - taking 100% responsibility for everything. This is a very deep teaching from the tradition I follow. It is not easy, it is not something most people ever achieve in their lifetimes, even dedicated practitioners, but that's what it means. That's the way we're asked to engage with our practices and our lives. It's very important to be honest with ourselves about this. In the West, we find it very difficult to look at ourselves as inferior or even mediocre. It's painful and embarrassing. It's not as difficult in the East. If we try to practice at a level we have not reached, we will only be frustrated and fail to make progress. I'm mediocre at best but I'm making progress. The interesting thing is that the more comfortable I become with this, the more liberated I feel - very counter-intuitive. The first statements you quoted above are a good and comfortable place to start. As we start to push a little further from that comfort zone, we can look at how we play some role in nearly everything that happens to us. If we are victim of a natural disaster, how did we get to the place where it occurred? We chose to visit or live there, for example. If we are mugged, it is a place we chose to visit, and so forth. We can always find an example of how little choice we have in a given circumstance but those extreme examples are best approached once we've made some progress with more accessible situations. We start with easy examples and gradually build our "muscles." It's important to not look at this as blaming oneself. It comes from a different culture with different values. This is related to the concept of karma, not the Abrahamic concept of sin and guilt. To take it a step further, these teachings are from the Dzogchen cycles which are intended to bring us to direct realization of non-duality and to integrate that fully into our lives. Following such a non-dual realization, we directly see and feel that we are not separate and discrete individuals but rather manifestations of a continuum, a wholeness, with a profound connection to everything and everyone around us. That's referred to as the awakened heart. We experience ourselves at a much deeper, more pervasive level. In that context, we truly are 100% responsible for absolutely everything that happens and that realization can be as much a part of daily life as driving to work. I'm just a beginner on this path but I've seen and experienced enough to be convinced that there is deep truth here worth pursuing - for me anyway. It is certainly not for everyone. The way I suggest to work with this is a bit light-hearted and playful. Focus on day to day situations in our lives, there are plenty opportunities there. No need to look for extreme examples. They can wait for now. See how it works for you. If it doesn't feel right, let it go. It's only helpful if it feels right and makes some sense. If it creates conflict or bad feelings inside, I think it is best to leave it alone, especially if you don't have an experience guide to help navigate the tricky parts.

Yes Best to start working with this under more manageable conditions at first. We tend to jump to extreme examples and challenge this principle as it does seem a bit outrageous at first blush. It takes quite a bit of stability and realization to apply our spiritual skills and learning to such horrific circumstance but yes, even then. The rationale is that no matter what the circumstances, no matter how horrible, no matter if they are totally out of our control, all we can ever do is manage our own response as best we can. We can always try to make the best out of whatever circumstances we find ourselves in. In that sense we are always fully responsible.

I think we sometimes focus too much on the teacher, it allows us to absolve ourselves of responsibility. The teacher is simply a person occupying a role in our lives. We give them that role, that responsibility. Then we either fall in love or criticize them for our successes and failures, or those of others. It is up to us to take responsibility for our choice of teachers and systems, our training, our progress, even when it appears that someone else is responsible, like a teacher, a politician, or a doctor. A great piece of wisdom from the tradition I follow: The superior practitioner takes full responsibility for everything that occurs in her life - 100%. The mediocre practitioner takes partial responsibility. The inferior practitioner blames everyone but himself. PS - I have no vested interest here, never studied with Chia or read any of his books

I appreciate your comments.

That's an excellent point and applies to all scripture, to anything in fact. There is also the perspective that all is sacred and we can learn and grow through everything we touch, if we are open enough. For most of us, however, there seems to be certain things we encounter that truly affect us, irrespective of social convention. And other things that do not. At least that is my experience.

There is a lot of ambiguity inherent in the language. I think we each get a sense of what Dao is pointing to over time and you’re right, there can be some nuance and variability depending on context. As long as we continue to study and/or practice I think it continues to change and develop. If you really enjoy the DDJ, you may want to begin to study the language a bit. I did that to be able to read and write martial arts stuff for my shifu. Just take a line, look up each character, and see what happens. The DDJ is perfect for that sort of thing as the chapters are very short. I enjoy that although I mostly do it now with Tibetan. I got a lot out of it in terms of understanding things. enter after working through some translations. I simply copy and pasted the character. You can also use a virtual Chinese keyboard for Mac or PC or a program like NJStar.