doc benway

That will change with time. While most translate 道 as way or path, I think we each develop a very personal idea of what it means. Jeff's perspectives here are excellent and appreciated. I will add some of my own, not to correct but rather to flesh out these ideas from an additional perspective. I would add that when we don't understand the path (this can refer to teachings, readings, practices, a particular point of view), it can seem ridiculous, incorrect, nonsensical, boring (eg refer to the current thread on the Diamond Sutra). Nevertheless, it is full of potential illumination and wisdom if we are patient enough and have the good fortune to understand at some point. Sometimes, we can find ourselves in a place where it feels like we are moving backward. This is very common in meditative practices and internal martial practices. What is really happening is that we are beginning to see weaknesses that we were previously not even aware of. This is another aspect of "going forward seems like retreat." Sometimes the simplest things are the most challenging, especially when we need to persist over time. For me the "highest Virtue" relates to non-interference - wu wei. That silence and emptiness seem worthless but, like in so many quotes from the Daoist masters, what seems worthless is often of great value. Another way to look at this is that the things that seem to obscure true wisdom are not an obscuration at all once we have a deeper glimpse. What seems like impurity is just a natural manifestation of the underlying purity - like thoughts to a meditator. At first they are an obstacle, something to get rid of. And they seem to get worse over a time as our awareness becomes deeper and more sensitive. With practice, they are allowed to come and go and do not disturb our ability to remain empty and quiet. At that point they are simply ornaments. This makes me think of vulnerability. On the spiritual path, it is necessary to confront our weaknesses, vulnerability, and embracing that is of enormous value. "Real Virtue seems unreal" can refer to the amazing ease with which the Sage can move through life without obvious worry, trouble, or baggage. This has always been a tricky passage. I think Jeff's take is insightful. I've seen geometric explanations as well, that "prove" that a square can have no corners when mapped to a different surface or dimensional space. One interpretation is that things are not always as they appear, be open to seeing a different truth rather than being fixed in our thinking. Which brings us back to Jeff's explanation in a way. "Great talents ripen late" suggests the need for patience and persistence. We tend to be hurried and impatient on the path. Another way to look at this is that there are things we cannot perceive but are nevertheless there. Keeping an open mind allows us to experience more and more subtle levels of ourselves and our surroundings. "The greatest form has no shape" can refer to energetic foundations and can also refer to the absolute foundation of all - emptiness/space, the boundlessness mentioned earlier.

That's an interesting point. When you do not translate it by "path" or "way," what does Tao mean to you? I think that's a good place to start.

By specific, do you mean exclusive? There are lots of specific meanings, hence so many translations and interpretations, but none can be said to be correct while all others are less correct. In a lot of ways, it means what we project onto it. Chinese, as a semantic-phonetic language is less explicit than the alphabetic languages we are conditioned to in the West.

I'll add that there are also traditions which have concluded that mind issues can never be resolved by mind, as it is mind that is the issue in the first place. You can't wash blood away with blood. Even Western psychotherapists are beginning to see this (eg ACT). While we certainly can engage the mind to analyze, judge, and understand its machinations, there are also other ways to resolve issues of the mind.

I did not 'like' that post... but I do! Well said, Luke I greatly appreciate and value your candor and vulnerability. It is wonderful to have you here! _/\_ Back to the OP, I've shared Yueya's feelings about the trophy since it first popped up. If these emojis must stay, I would opt for praying hands over the gold cup...

Some random thoughts I think we all connect with different things at different times based on various causes and conditions. I appreciate your candor and passion but convincing yourself that the teaching is worthless, calling it a crock of shit, what value is there in that? It shuts the door on something that may hold something valuable, whether for you or someone else. Just my perspective. None of us gets everything. If something makes no sense, I suggest it's best to let it go and move on. If others benefit from it, good for them, no need to invalidate their experience. My teacher once suggested that when we encounter things that make no sense, accept that, let it go, and be open enough that we may come to appreciate it in the future. I had that experience once with a book on Taijiquan. Started it and it made no sense. Came back to it a year later and it clicked. Re-read it a few years after that and felt like it got to the deepest aspects of Taijiquan of any book I'd read. It wasn't until I'd had some degree of hands on experience that each successive level made sense. The funny thing is that we file away volumes of things we understand, always tending to focus more on what we don't... Better perhaps to focus more on what does make sense and use it to gain deeper understanding. I personally like that approach. I also prefer the experiential approach over the conceptual one. Trying to "get it" through sutras doesn't work all that well for me - especially some of those old Buddhist sutras. That's some challenging stuff. No doubt in my mind that with the right perspective, preparation, dedication, and intention it can be quite powerful stuff but many of these things are referred to as self-secret. Secrecy is maintained passively, perhaps they written intentionally in this way. And if you really want to see if there is some meat in the Diamond Sutra you may consider looking at some of the classic commentaries written on it. I read Nan Huai-chin's commentary on it and learned so much. I'm sure there are other good commentaries as well. I haven't read it but I think Thich Nhat Hanh has also written a book about it - he tends to be very clear. Or just leave it be, there is so much more to work with... Peace

Thank you for the way you presented this important question. It is well worth some consideration. _/\_

I'm curious what you consider to be "more conventional cultivation arts" than meditation?

wood and sheep in half lotus posture, abiding on sun and moon disks

Look into Shiba Luohan Qigong - 18 Arahat Qigong It seems to have it's origins in Shaolin. There are several internet resources and variations. The way I learned it is a bit different from anything I can find online. It can be practice with more internal focus for health or with more external tension for martial training. In my experience, there are principles of qigong that can be learned and discovered through practice that seem to be independent of classifications like Buddhist and Daoist. Good luck!

He's teaching tummo this summer in Virginia.

...nothing to see here...

Thank you for your support

I think there are ways in which thoughts create our reality but that is only part of the story. The more fundamental point is that mind creates our reality and mind goes beyond thought. Without an ear and brain, sound does not exist, only vibratory disturbance of air. Similarly, sound does not exist without a medium in which it can propagate, so air, ear, brain, and stimulus are all required. Thought is not necessary but in nearly all people, thought enters milliseconds after the brain receives the stimulus. The mind is the framework in which the experience of reality takes place for all living creatures. We can postulate an independent reality that is not affected by each of us, but that in itself is nothing more than a thought. Living creatures are biologic antennae that are tuned in such a way as to elicit experience from an energetic morass. Our sensory apparatus must exclude the vast majority of information presented to it in order to create a finite spectrum of experience that can be processed. Change the tuning of the sensory apparatus, it's fitness, or the interpretation of it's data, and the entire experience of reality changes. A simple example of how thought creates reality in a more practical sense - Let's take a woman, for example. To her children she is a mother, to her lover she is a sexual goddess, to her boss she is a tool, to her subordinates she is authority, to her readers she is a brilliant poet, to the person she wronged she is a turd... Same person experienced in completely different ways based on relationship, and that can change quite easily. That relationship is essentially based on thought.

Here is a link to the FB Live teachings categorized by subject: http://www.ligminchalearning.com/twr-live-video-archive There are also many videos here: https://www.oceanofwisdom.org/ Unfortunately the Ocean of Wisdom archive is not yet searchable or categorized but that is in progress... stayed tuned. You simply need to scroll through the videos for now. A 4 week online dream yoga workshop begins in May - it's more costly than the book but worth every penny if you are serious about the practice. It is the next best thing to live teachings. I can't recommend it highly enough: https://www.glidewing.com/twr/dreamyoga_home.html. Finally, he is teaching a short retreat on dream and sleep yogas in Colorado in June: https://www.shambhalamountain.org/program/tibetan-dream-yoga-2018/

Sorry, I should have been more explicit. I'm speaking more along the lines of ilumairen's post. I was specifically referring to the Bön and Buddhist definitions of wisdom, not sagely advice. This definition of wisdom points directly at non-dual experience and is non-binary by definition. This wisdom refers to the nature of reality and is independent of thoughts and concepts, precisely what the OP was referring to.

I will respectfully disagree.

duplicate

Speaking of imaginary numbers,

I agree

Huw Price wrote a wonderful, but difficult, book about the nature of time called Time's Arrow and Archimedes' Point. Here is a brief interview with him you may find interesting.

Precisely correct Asking "who" invented sound implies that sound was invented and that an inventor was involved. This is a gratuitous assertion that is a consequence of our tendency towards anthropocentric thinking. There is no requirement that sound was invented, at least none that I've come across. Sound is a consequence of the existence of ears that are attached to brains, otherwise there is only vibration in air. What evidence or requirement is there that a workshop is involved? Why must there be a beginning? I reached the conclusion that the demands for how and why are a side effect of language and rational thought. If the mind can grasp a how and why, it can feel a bit more secure. I'm not sure the premise that "how" and "why" can always be found is an inherent part of the mystery of existence. On the other hand, questions are far better than answers... Questions have limitless potential, they are alive and stimulate growth. Answers on the other hand indicate an end to growth, answers tend to be dead. Keep asking the questions but don't get too hung up on having to find an answer. At least that's my approach.

Doing nothing can be "subtly intervening at the right moment and without making a big show of it" for now if that makes the most sense to you but it can go much deeper than that with time, patience, and deeper realization. The truth is that it is meant to be taken quite literally but that requires a level of understanding that usually comes over time through experiential practices which help loosen the stranglehold of the "doer" and the compulsion to change what is. Hence the critical role of meditation and other experiential practices among Daoists (neigong, qigong, taiji, bagua, etc...). There is a way to be in which one literally does not intervene. Whatever needs to be done happens quite spontaneously and naturally with no effort, planning, or engagement of the "doer" whatsoever. This is a large part of the unique training methods of taijiquan. My favorite approach to paradox comes from the writings of the philosopher poet John Donohue. "And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you." Paradox abounds in Daoist literature because the Daoists are trying to get you out of your head, out of your rational approach to the world. Paradox attacks rationality. It is precisely the same tool as the Chan/Zen koan. This is why the sage appears like an idiot, unlearning is prioritized over learning, paradoxes are everywhere, and the best thing to do is nothing at all. The one who plans, the one who studies, the one who wants to change anything or intervene is precisely what is blocking the natural flow and rhythm of the Way.

Daoism, Buddhism, Confuscianism, Mohism, and others have been blended quite extensively in Chinese philosophy and culture. I think the best way to try and find a purely Daoist approach is to find a credible teacher of Daoist meditation and to practice. My teacher always discouraged us from studying and reading and felt that it was a waste of valuable practice time. While the concepts we can learn from Daoist writings are valuable and sensible, the experiential practices take you directly to the source which is untainted by concept. To know the Dao, we need to give up the seeking. Not at all a tall order, this is precisely the role of meditation in Daoism. You are already a pure manifestation of the Dao, you're just not aware of it. While the Dao may be unspeakable, I would disagree that it is unknowable. You can also get a taste from other experiential practices - neigong, qigong, internal martial arts

It is truly a wonderful place. I find wisdom here, beauty, love, as well as frustration, ignorance, and pain. It is a place where I can look more closely at myself as I experience such things in my interaction with others. I feel that it has helped me to grow and for that I am grateful to Sean, to all the past, present, and future mods, and to all of the members, especially those with whom I disagree. _/\__/\__/\_