doc benway

This is the basis of dream yoga practices.

Agreed, than you for adding that. There's no other way really, tradition notwithstanding. That is precisely why the "holding on" reference is not as supportive for me personally. Not a big deal, just caught my attention.

I appreciate that you saw the conflict of interest and did not participate in the moderation. Thanks for addressing my concern.

Thank you for clarifying. If he is referring to the Self holding on to the Self, I understand and can connect somewhat with that image. Too often the admonition to hold on to something results in the self doing the holding... That was my concern. Nevertheless, from my personal meditative experience and practice, it is far more an action of letting go than of holding on. There is no need for the Self to hold on to what it already is, and there is no value in the self trying to hold on to something it is not, for me it is more a process of remembering to let go. In that letting go, the Self arises spontaneously, effortlessly, and there is no need for it to hold on to anything.

Thank you for clarifying and replying dawei. Yes, I sympathize with all of you and all of us... And as a wise woman recently said, time heals all wounds. For Daoists, Buddhists, Hindus, and the rest of us... change is inevitable, change is good, it is nothing to fear. Peace

Unfortunately, she already deleted many of her best taijiquan posts!!! Fortunately for me, I'm much more engaged in meditative practice than taiji anymore...

With respect, I would suggest that you consider recusing yourself from moderating in any cases where your husband is involved. Nothing is more important in moderation than distance and neutrality. That is impossible when the issue involves family and loved ones. It felt to me that you and Donald were both too emotionally invested in this. At least that is my perception from the posts and discussion. I offer this observation in the most constructive way possible. I don't have a dog in this fight.

My son taught me that sometimes there is strength in quitting. I was at my wits' end after serving as president of our company for several years. I desperately wanted to quit but felt that quitting was weak, quitting was unacceptable, I had a responsibility to others, etc... My 16 year old son's response to my impasse was "you quit smoking, didn't you?" When things are toxic for us or no longer feel right, quitting can allow us to go in a new, fresh, and unexpected direction which can make all the difference in life. Taomeow's description of participating here was that of a habit. Habitual patterns tend to make us stale, there is a freshness in the new and spontaneous. I don't mean to say you're wrong, just offering an alternate perspective.

I'll add this community would be far less credible and interesting without you here, Taomeow. Your presence is a fabulous resource to many and while I don't always share your perspective, I feel that I have grown from trying to be open to it. I recently came across a thread asking to explain the 5 elements and have hoping to see your contribution... Alas I will offer that I share your feelings about how you were treated in that thread. In fact, I reported ZYD's insulting and demeaning attack on you veiled as moderator action. I have no bone to pick with Donald but that was uncalled for, IMO. Curiously, no moderator even acknowledged my report. I recognize the challenges associated with moderating, I did my time and doubt I would ever do it again. Nevertheless, I've been disturbed by some moderating actions over the past year, in particular in this instance and that related to Hancock several months ago. This place is and has always been a microcosm, as Sean intended. As mods and as members we do some good, we make some mistakes, valuable members come and go, and the bottom feeders come and go. I do hope to see you here in the future and, if not, I hope we maintain our connection outside of DaoBums. I know you will do what is right for you. With love and great respect, Steve _/\__/\__/\_

Just looking at this thread, I hope it's OK to comment on the OP. For me, that "ever holding on to Self" is really a letting go of self. The "holding on to" has too much connotation of attachment. The one who is holding on is precisely the obstacle so to hold on to Self is a bit of a misnomer from a practical point of view, at least in the way I approach meditation and integration. I don't say this to imply that Sri Muruganar is wrong but I think the use of language can be misleading. I understand what he is pointing to but have some discomfort with the choice of words.

I agree with you. Spirituality is poetry, life is poetry. The Daodejing is many things to many people. Even though it was written 2000 years ago it is still very much alive and flexible. I think that is in part due to the Chinese language and in part due to the wisdom of the writings. Most importantly it is because we come to it with all of our conditioning, experience, questions, desires, fears, and we each derive our own unique interpretation and expression of the simple yet profound truths it offers.

My only comment is that the most important thing about a shrine is that it supports your practice. It's beautiful, thank you for sharing.

He often teaches in Europe and other Bönpo masters are in Europe. It seems they sometimes teach similar topics in a timely fashion. If I see anything come up in Europe, I'll post here.

Trump is nothing if not a propagandist. His campaign was deeply rooted in fear and generated enormous malice on both sides. These are objective facts. If observing that is stirring the pot, I'm guilty as charged. I'll gladly disengage now. Hopefully that will break the cycle...

One word comes to mind - viral. Trump and similar propagandists infect everything they touch. Malice breeds malice, same as it ever was.

Then the fact that it's rearing its ugly head now has nothing to do with Trump? A presidential candidate (now a president) bragging about grabbing women by the pussy, calling Mexicans rapists and murders, signing countless executive orders to destroy the environment, supporting white supremacists, encouraging attendees at a rally to physically assault dissenters... all that is irrelevant to these expressions of anger? For sure we are seeing human nature, for sure we are seeing dormant fears and anger expressed, and for sure Trump, Bannon, and company took this opportunity to spread messages calculated to foment division and anger. The ruling class have always used division to control the populace. That is precisely what we are seeing in this country now. If economically challenged Blacks, Whites, Mexicans, Asians, etc... banded together to address the economic and political abuse and disenfranchisement that is growing rapidly in this country, the gentry would be shit out of luck.

"the global criminal networks are not all jews" "not all jews are party or privy to the alleged jewishness of the global criminal networks" As a Jew, I find these comments hurtful and offensive, intended or not. That is how it makes me feel, whether you consider that feeling valid or not. Being a part of a community means that we affect each other and we are not always aware of how are words are taken. To my ear, the emphasis in your comments is on the word 'all.' Sounds a lot like "not all blacks are criminals" or "not all women are weak" or "not all Poles are stupid" The implication here is that many or most are, just not all. I offer this comment in the most constructive way possible and I acknowledge you may find it confrontational. You may say that it's in my head or it's my paranoia and, to a degree, that is correct. Each of us sees the world through our past experience and conditioning. For minorities whose people have been subjected to efforts at mass extermination or subjugation, the paranoia and sensitivity is very real and justified. Jews cannot look at a palm raised in salute and not think of death camps, Hutus cannot look at a machete and not think of recent genocide, African Americans cannot look at heavy steel chains and not think of slavery. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule but I hope you see my point. My hope is that sharing my perspective will help you to see that the "progressive" value of considering the feelings of others when we communicate has some validity and value. I don't mean to add fuel to the fire but I also don't feel that a comment like yours should be let slide, particularly not in the context of a spiritually oriented discussion board. It's your prerogative to brush off my expression of feelings or take a moment and consider that there may be some truth there worthy of consideration. We never see ourselves more clearly and more accurately than when we can see ourselves through the eyes of others, especially those that we offend.

I rarely look at that thread. I learned early on that it is not a discussion that is of any value to me. The last time I did look at it, I reported the comments of a moderator who I felt had used veiled insults to attack a member against whom I suspect they hold some degree of longstanding animosity. I think that thread brings out the worst in us, as political debates tend to do. I think that we want to be (eg think we are) a group of "enlightened" people, interested in wide variety of spiritual endeavors, who have come to a point where they are able to see through the veneer of mass ignorance and confusion such that we are able to discuss any topic without restriction. The truth is the Talk Trump thread shows us just how (self)obsessed we are with the political and economic narrative and how petty, defensive, and aggressive we are when our ideas of truth collide. We are no better or more "enlightened" than any other group of people chatting anonymously online, we just feel that way because we discuss "enlightened" topics like Daoism and Buddhism. I've seen far more civil, compassionate, and supportive activity in forums where the primary topic of discussion is knives, guns, swords, guitars, music, and so forth. To a large degree that is because those forums generally restrict political and religious discussion. For all of the dismissive and condescending attitudes I see here towards Christianity, I have seen far more respectful and mutually supportive discussion on boards that were composed predominately of Christians - not only towards each other but towards all members of the community. I think this issue has been present since the beginning of this board. Good and bad people have come and gone. The tenor of the board has not changed all that much in my time here, although the whole Trump issue has been very divisive as it has been, and was intended to be, for the country at large. There is undoubtedly a human cost to permitting political and religious debate online. Anonymity and distance allow us to be far more aggressive and offensive than most of us would ever consider face to face. The flip side is that every one of us knows what is likely to result from participating in a thread like Talk Trump or one of the many threads on gender issues, sexuality, politics, MoPai, etc... While these threads are great opportunities to practice and cultivate spiritual and interpersonal maturity, for most of us they simply cause pain and frustration and show us at our ugliest. Caveat emptor. I believe the hope and intention is that this is a place where we can handle any discussion and whatever consequences arise, that is the workings of the Dao - so be it. While that is true, the result is that wonderful contributors tend to get fed up with the bullying and aggression of the bottom feeders and depart - I could easily name several without having to think much about it. It's a very fine line to walk - allow freedom and alienate valuable contributing members vs restrict discussion topics and sterilize or suppress opportunities to grow through such interaction. I for one am disgusted by much of the dialogue in Talk Trump and many other threads of similar tone. Just like in real life, sharing our political positions has posed real challenges in terms of maintaining friendships and collegiality with folks of opposing views. I think I would be much more engaged in a community that made more of an attempt to foster mutual collaboration and support among members and restricted or discouraged political debate. We do a pretty good job of discussing religion here, but clearly not politics. I suspect that is because we are more religiously than politically homogenous. On the other hand, I do respect Sean for creating this online experiment of unrestricted discussion and for those who prefer this atmosphere, it is a rare and unique online home. I think this community wants to maintain a high degree of freedom when it comes to discussion and selection of topics. While that is admirable there will be inevitable consequences and that means attrition of members who lose patience with each other as discussions get heated. At the end of the day, this forum is not all that important. It is simply a place where people can chat anonymously. We would be well served to take ourselves, our opinions, our truths, and the topics of discussion less seriously and to try and approach the community with a bit more playfulness and civility. This site is unique in that it brings people together from all over the world who may find it difficult to find others locally with similar interests in Eastern religion, language, philosophy, and practice. If that is the goal of the community, I think we would find it far more effective if we were to restrict political discussion. I believe we would see less animosity and fewer departures of valuable contributors. This site is also unique in allowing such a degree of freedom of religious and political discussion. If that freedom is the goal then we are very effective but that freedom undoubtedly has a negative impact on the former goals. I must say that I have seen a few very disappointing examples of moderation here of late although overall I feel the moderators do an excellent job that is thankless and voluntary. The moderators here are only human and the job is quite challenging, I know that from personal experience. Nevertheless, when they exhibit bias, intolerance, and petty retaliation, they should be called out and corrected or invited to leave the role.

I think "perfected" is a good word to use and I also think you are on the right track. Here is a discussion of shen that i think is worth reading: http://www.itmonline.org/shen/chap1.htm In the tradition I follow, Yungdrung Bön, the qualities of enlightenment are often referred to as "perfected" qualities. Those qualities are always already present but are obscured by internal and external factors. The practices we focus on are designed to remove all obstacles to spontaneous, effortless, and pure expression of those perfected qualities. Similarly, shen is related to the human experience and expression of the divine as mentioned above (from the Chinese perspective, not the Abrahamic one). Daoist practices that lead to the cultivation and expression of shen are practices that remove external and internal obstacles and allow shen to manifest without impediment = wu wei. From my perspective, the perspective of a practitioner only - not a scholar or philosopher, there is a profound similarity between the Dzogchen view and the Daoist view.

Don't know where you're located but Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche is offering a retreat in Virginia on Tummo this summer.

That's a 7 year old link... Zhan zhuang is very powerful but there are no short cuts. If you practice skillful standing, many things will arise including spontaneous movement. The key is to fully engage with the standing and connecting mind and body. If we get focused on waiting for things to happen, nothing will happen but disappointment. It may takes years of practice for deeper experiences to occur.

Prostrations are generally considered to be working at the levels of body, speech, and mind simultaneously. The theory is that we prostrate in order to tame the ego, to put it in its proper place. Generally speaking, "ego" is the source of all of our problems because we over-identify with it - we take it to be who we are. That is fundamental ignorance, that is what we are looking to transcend, to see for what it really is. I think each tradition would say that its approach is preferable and efficacious. Don't overthink it, just find a method and start practicing. You may eventually want to connect with a live teacher or sangha, then you can easily adapt. There are 3 aspects - 1 Body - the physical action 2 Speech - the recitation, most traditions practice some sort of refuge prayer during prostration but any sort of supportive and pure expression of devotion, gratitude, requesting blessings, or mantra is fine. 3 Mind - it is easy for the mind to wander as we prostrate, even during a recitation or mantra. The mind must also be open, connected, alert, undistracted and fully engaged. Most traditions, I suspect, also incorporate a visualization during the practice that helps to engage the mind. Bottom line, if you can perform prostrations with no distraction, fully engaged, fully connected to the present moment, nothing else is really needed. If you are interested in a description of the visualization in the tradition I follow, let me know and I'll share but I don't have the time right now. Good luck in your practice! _/\_

Hi Yinja, I'm not a guru and not interested in being a guide but I'll offer a few observations, FWTW. I was emotionally locked down for a good part of my adult life and have opened up to a far richer and deeper emotional and spiritual life. What you are going through is a transition and temporary. And it's worth it. It is a good idea to find a guru if you are feeling the need of support. You may be able to find that in an anonymous forum like this one but better yet to find a credible master you can connect with in person, IMO. The fear you feel of others' judgement is a normal consequence of a lifetime of conditioning. We are programmed from early childhood to be addicted to approval - parents, teachers, friends, lovers - everyone we meet. All those whose opinions you fear are equally addicted and programmed. Those very judgements you fear are nothing more than an expression of fears, desires, expectations... It's all completely empty, that's what you are realizing - you just need to take the next step. You are seeing through your own masque, now see how all of those opinions and judgements you fear are equally transparent. It's all a dance. Acknowledge the negative and positive qualities you find in yourself, just as you see them in others. They are simply the way things are, nothing more and nothing less. Don't judge, just be aware and let it be. They are a product of years, decades, and generations of conditions and conditioning. The awareness alone will lead to spontaneous change, to growth. Next, see if you can find a little bit of openness in your heart to just let all of it be as it is. Is it possible to accept yourself, as you are? Look at yourself as a friend who needs your help, your support, your love. Could you accept a close friend, even with the faults you find in yourself? Show yourself some kindness, some patience, and be proud of yourself for every little step you take on this path. You deserve that much. One teacher who speaks beautifully to these themes for me is Anthony Demello. Check out his book Awareness. Better yet, listen to his live teachings in the set of CD's called Wake Up to Life! Here's the first part - Good luck on your journey! _/\_

I think focusing solely on Lao Tzu's words is an example of being dogmatic and adhering to a school of thought. Lao Tzu does not define Daoism for me. For me, being a Daoist is related to engaging in Daoist practices more than it is adhering to Lao Tzu's words, or any words for that matter. That said, the results of engaging in the practices brings us to a place where Lao Tzu's words, and those of the other masters, make sense and are expressed in our lives. When we come to these words through practice based realization it is far more meaningful than through words. One way to look at it is that indulging pleasure, and avoiding displeasure, are not supportive of dedicated practice. This is why serious practitioners would routinely isolate themselves. Eventually it is important to integrate the results of such practice with worldy life but in the beginning we do not have the skill or stability. Furthermore indulging oneself, whether positive or negative, reinforces the sense of self that is dismantled by meditative practices and replaced by a far greater and more fundamental sense of self. A lot of self proclaimed Daoists tend to be self-indulgent. I think this is mostly related to the fact that they are scholars rather than practitioners - two very different types of Daoist. Sorry if anyone is offended by these comments.

pollution