doc benway

I was with you up until this statement. While this is a part of liberation, it is not the entirety of it in my view.

Halfway through the first book and find it compelling and thoroughly enjoyable.The characters are wonderful, the tension is building, it's easy to read, and I can't yet tell where it's headed although I have some suspicions. Thanks for the recommendation!

If the feeling has been with you your "whole life," it may have little to do with spirituality. I think there are different ways to approach the issue and very specific advice would require having a much better understanding of who you are, what you practice, your life circumstances, and so forth. That said, one thing that can be extremely supportive if you are currently engaged in spiritual practice is to connect with like-minded people. Find a local sangha or practice group, for example. it is important to make real connections. Internet connections are not the same. We need eye contact, physical contact, shared experience, shared interests. We need to be able to hug someone, cry and laugh with them. My teacher always tries to emphasize the value of coming together and simply sharing presence and experience. This is far more important than any exchange of information in his view (and mine). A very important part of being human is connecting with others in a meaningful way. Our high tech society has isolated and estranged us from this sort of contact and I think it is quite toxic.

Your point is valid and acknowledged but I disagree with what John states in the quotation. He begins by saying "Being a good spiritual practitioner can become what I call ..." What he subsequently goes on to describe is not the consequence of being a good spiritual practitioner but rather being a misguided practitioner. Being a good practitioner, having a good teacher, and following a credible path should result in real world integration and positive changes in our lives. Otherwise, something is lacking and we need to redirect ourselves.

I often see people question or criticize Buddhist practice and fruition as being too detached, implying a dullness, unresponsiveness, disconnectedness... Nothing could be further from the truth. Thank you for sharing this wonderfully concise yet comprehensive passage! What more is needed?

Losar Tashi Delek everyone!

Liberation requires that we deal with each and every condition in our lives in some way and release whatever relationship we have with it, whether positive or negative. In that sense, all human experience can (and must) be taken as the path. Of course, the closer to the root we are able to cut, the less we will have to deal with specific conditions. Nevertheless, these are the things we have to work with. At least, that's how I am working on myself. I acknowledge that it's not the only way or necessarily the correct way. Just what I've been taught and find is working for me.

While it's nice to talk about dropping the doer permanently, few of us are close to that. Mindfulness is the indispensible tool of the practitioner to return and continue.

Anything can be the path... hatred, sex, drugs... Ultimately, everything has to be the path.

Such an important point. Every interaction is a remote interaction. We interact with our interpretation and projection of the other, not who they are. We interact with who we are, not who they are. This happens whether face to face, remotely, in all relationship. So we can do remote energy practice and think about its efficacy, its benefits and risks,... but what a wasted opportunity if we don't bring that intention, that level of interest, that complete awareness to our every word, thought, and action here and everywhere in our lives.

Who could deny this?

Being in the movement is dualistic, being the movement is nondual. Rigpa is also referred to as nondual awareness by Rinpoche above, therefore it is not a characteristic of dual states such as "being in that movement." Yes, everything is energy. In it's native state, undifferentiated. It is in part our unique sensory apparatus and conditioning that elicits form from formless. Thodgal practice is one way to see this. This is one reason why I discourage myself and others from focusing too much on rigpa as that is simply one characteristic of our primordial state. In the dzogchen teachings, that state is described as having three characteristics - space, awareness, and warmth (or emptiness, clarity, and bliss). The first characteristic is the empty and boundless aspect, the second is rigpa, and the third is the tsal or dynamism - the flows you refer to. When you are that, it is what is referred to as nondual in the dzogchen teachings. This is one thing the zhine practice teaches as introduction and stabilization of the nature of mind. Again, I think you are reifying rigpa. It is simply a description of the self aware aspect of the natural state. At least that is what the dzogchen teachings seem to be saying to me. It is easy to try to grasp it. Better to let go, at least for me. Yes, when referring to realizing emptiness, realizing the self aware nature of the natural state, realizing the nondual nature of "who we are" and the flow of the internal and external winds, we rest more and more deeply into openness, we distinguish the mind from its nature. We rest into the nature by releasing or dis-identifying with mind. I'm a little resistant to getting into this sort of analytical discussion as it engages and turns on the mind and tends to take me further from the nature. Thank you for sharing, I appreciate your descriptions of your experience and interpretations. I think it can be helpful to compare notes to some degree as long as we don't get too focused on "understanding."

From my perspective rigpa is not "resting in movement , in that clarity." Rigpa is self knowing, the opposite of ma rigpa - ignorance. What is the self that is known (realized)? That is the basis. Rigpa may be present (or absent) at rest, in movement, and in arising or manifestation. There are base and path rigpa, the primordial self-knowing of the basis and the personal experience of self-knowing of the practitioner. One is a manifestation of the other but they are not equivalent. Using phrases like 'resting in rigpa' tends to lead some to reify it as a state of consciousness, something to do or be. I think that is misleading. You speak of resting in movement as rigpa and becoming that movement as something else. I look at it a bit differently. Resting in the movement means the one who is resting is inactive, unidentified with, and eventually dissolves. The observer and observed are not differentiated, perhaps that is what you mean by "becoming"? This is the beginning of self-recognition - rigpa. Rinpoche's discussion above appears to be focusing on zhiné (Shine). Many of the insights he describes are developed as a result of zhiné practice. I personally don't doubt Rinpoche's knowledge or understanding of rigpa but you are welcome to, of course. I think he is a reliable resource based on his training and experience although I've never studied with him. I question my own understanding first, knowing that my understanding is imperfect, and work patiently towards a deeper realization. There is nothing beyond rigpa in these teachings, it is a characteristic of the basis. The fundamental premise of dzogchen is that there is no becoming, we already are from the beginning. We simply need to recognize and realize, settle into what we already are. It is done without any effort whatsoever. Any effort, any becoming, takes us further away. While confidence can be a virtue, it can also be an impediment. I'd suggest you be open to the possibility that your understanding is imperfect. I freely admit that I don't understand the teachings to the degree I would like. Dzogchen teachings seem very accessible because they are so simple and yet there is a precision and subtlety that is very elusive and dependent on direct transmission from a master and dedicated practice. There is a saying that we need to HEAR the teachings (implying direct transmission which I think is absolutely critical), then we need to reflect deeply on what we've heard, then we need to actualize those teachings in our lives.

Serenity Ridge Retreat Center in Nelson County, Virginia. My spiritual home.

duplicate post... browser a little strange lately

Nothing to forgive and no hard feelings. It's the mind's nature (as opposed to the Nature of Mind) to judge, measure, and compare; to define and understand. I didn't take it as negative but just as it is and, to be frank, I expected it but don't want to engage in that too much. I just don't find it very helpful at this point. Mind is forever in the realm of mind. It is not the Nature and will never truly know the Nature. When it drops away, the clarity aspect of the Nature knows itself - that is Rigpa. Mind is, however, a dynamic display of the energy, the tsal. Whatever you think the Nature is, whatever we collectively conclude that it is, it's not that. We can read a million descriptions by the greatest masters and think we know. Sitting for a few minutes in skillful practice will teach us more about it than all the books on Earth. We can understand it perfectly and never taste it. I wrote that little poem to try and share a bit of how it tastes to me, not to define it. Thank you very much for the kind words, I really appreciate that. I also enjoy your presence here and your contributions.

bloated

I'd prefer to leave my little poem as it is. I feel like I am now being tested and examined, measured and graded. That was not the objective of sharing. Trying to anticipate what you are looking for, trying to describe experience in more detail, adding more words... Trying to describe the natural state with words... I'll pass. I will say that yes, the empty nature does include the body. My ability to rest in the nature of mind as I go through the day and in dreams is something that I currently work with and is coming along slowly but surely. In our tradition, we look at it from the perspective of body, speech, and mind. All three are integrated into the natural state in waking, dream, deep sleep, and at the time of death. My intention was not to describe my true nature but simply share personal meditative experience. I do so rarely and prefer not to have it dissected or graded. No question I am at a stage along the path, nothing more and nothing less. And no, I'm not a realized guru. We can describe our experience but not our true nature, IMO. I can describe the flavor of a mango to you - it's tart, sour, sweet, funky, creamy, there's a bit of umame. If you've never tasted a mango it might sound just like spoiled milk or lemonade but you still won't know the flavor of a mango. A menu doesn't satisfy hunger and the letters w-a-t-e-r don't slake thirst. I'm not much into trying to intellectually understand these things. I'm more interested in seeing how they improve the quality of my life and those around me. Beyond practice, I find relatively little value in thinking or talking about it. I'd much rather discuss the impact it's having on our lives and how it can be beneficial. The words and concepts for me are more a distraction than an aid with a few exceptions as noted in my earlier post.

Thanks for the reply. How best to describe the indescribable? Many great masters have tried and do a far better job than I ever could. I particularly like the indirect pointing we find in the advice of the Bönpo Masters of the Zhangzhung Nyengyud, Longchenpa, Chan and Zen poetry, that of Shabkar, Milarepa, and Rumi! Direct descriptions can sound trite and recycled. The words are far too cheap and small. Nevertheless, I'll share some personal impressions for what they're worth. Sitting and resting, I watch thoughts come. I notice the body, the emotions, the senses... Not following, not refusing... allowing and opening; they soon loosen and depart. I rest in the spaciousness, stillness, and silence that remains. Luminous, immediate, and vivid, yet utterly clear and transparent. Resting deeper and looking back at the one who is resting, "I" loosens and falls away like a silk robe. Form is there, I let go... I am not that. And yet I am not other than that... I rest deeper. Thought is there, I continue to let go. I rest deeper, wider, fully open. Identification loosens further and floats away like fine mist before a strong breeze. Looking back at the one who is looking, no one is there. What is left is timeless, unborn and undying, pervasive, perfect, and instantly present. Complete and yet empty of all identification and substance. The body can move, clear presence is undisturbed. The voice speaks yet silence is there. Thoughts and emotions come, abide, and depart - nothing there to hold them. Like painting figures in air, the sky is untouched. Clear presence aware of its empty nature remains.

In keeping with the Hanuman theme, here's a concert poster I recently picked up..

It's very normal to have experiences of fear and vulnerability if you are practicing vipassana. The world as you know it and the "you" as you know him/her is changing. The old sense of reality gets shaken and ultimately breaks apart. It can be gentle for some and highly traumatic for others, and I highly recommend having the support of an experienced guide or teacher for anyone practicing vipassana. The good news is that once you settle into what lies beneath the veneer you will be far stronger and self-sufficient. In my opinion, it's worth the candle but it's not for everyone. It's very good to hear you are also doing vinyasa and taijiquan, both of which can help ground you in the body and balance the initially destabilizing effects of vipassana.

I just want to say how impressed with this thread. I'm not much of a history buff myself but it is important and cudos to your knowledge and commitment, Apech. _/\_

I assume that question is directed at me. Before I answer, can I ask if you actively practice meditation? If so, what is your practice and tradition? It will help me to respond effectively. Thanks

Some of the "crazy talk" is simply a different perspective. It sounds crazy if we do not yet see the world and the teachings through that perspective. Some of that refers to culture and some to our own level of spiritual development. I mean no disrespect, none of us understands everything contained within the teachings - certainly not me. Buddha does not die because Buddha has never been born. Buddha does not refer to the bag of skin that is born, dies, and decays nor to the personality that inhabits it. Buddha is the awakening of self-illuminated, unbounded spaciousness within that bag of skin and personality. The body dies, the personality dies, but awakening presence does not. Rebirth is a sticky wicket for many but it is easier to grasp when one sees the truth of sunyata and dependent origination. My teacher helped me to be more accepting of aspects of the teachings that don't speak to me. He freely admits there is much he doesn't understand contained within the teachings. Rather than look at it as wrong or crazy, he invites us to recognize our own limitations in understanding and cultivate a degree of trust in the wisdom of the lineage and an interest in gaining a deeper and more comprehensive understanding over time through patient study and practice. It's also important to acknowledge that not everyone is suited for every path and if the path does not speak to us it is OK to take a different one. The Dalai Lama often recommends we take from Buddhism what works for us and not be too concerned with what doesn't. It's not an all or none proposition, even though there are those who would have us believe it must be.

Yes, no methods are nearly as effective as we would like them to be and yet all have their place for the right person at the right time in their lives. Thank you CT for presenting such a wonderful point of discussion and it's wonderful to see all the helpful and insightful input. It has helped me to see a little deeper into the subtle elements of the Judeo-Christian paradigm that are ingrained in my thought and behavior. Similarly, I would expect an Indian or Chinese who has adopted Christianity to be influenced to some degree by their exposure to principles of karma and Confuscian values... Each of us has to work with what we have, who we are, and where we are at this moment. We can adopt a set of practices and ideology from a foreign land and culture but we can't simply step out of our deep seated values and beliefs as if they were an old pair of socks. Just like one can't expect someone just beginning to walk the sutric path to allow all of their challenges to self-liberate, those of us with Western backgrounds on the Buddhist path can't simply ignore our culture and religious foundation and act and feel as if we were born in Tibet or Thailand. If we feel wronged, that is what we have to work with and forgiveness is an appropriate and effective tool. As we begin to be transformed by our practices, our feelings of being wronged and the need to forgive will lessen. Feeling wronged gives way to feeling as if our karma is playing out as a lively display of the base. Feeling the desire to forgive gives way to simply letting go of our identification with the one who feels wronged and that lively energy can liberate without effort. Even within Buddhism there are profound differences in how we respond to challenges. Just like a Buddhist doesn't feel the need to forgive, the Dzogchenpa doesn't feel the need to renounce. So it is wonderful to look back at my reaction to the OP that got this discussion rolling and see my resistance, my defensiveness, my desire to be right, and so forth. It wasn't all that powerful but those things were definitely there. I've been extremely busy at work this past week and haven't read all of the posts but look forward to catching up over the weekend. I feel like this line of discussion has helped me have a little deeper understanding of Buddhism, the Western mind, and myself and for that I am grateful. _/\__/\__/\_