doc benway

In my opinion, being without thoughts can be looked at as a skill, particularly for beginning and intermediate practitioners. The tendency of most people living in modern society is to be perpetually lost in thought - dwelling in the past, planning the future, and judging the present. It is a rare phenomenon for someone to spontaneously recognize the essence of mind and effortlessly rest in non-thought or non-identification with thought. I acknowledge the truth of what I believe is the intent of the message that "being without thoughts is not a skill." Being in that state is an act of release, doing anything at all takes us away from that space, this is why dzogchen meditation is referred to as non-meditation. Nevertheless, for most of us there are steps that need to be taken between being perpetually lost in thought and being able to rest in the essence of clear and open awareness with stability. When we experience the fruit of our cultivation we can look back and see how unnecessary all of that effort was. Sharing that perspective may be useful to some lucky beings but for many it is simply beyond their capability and can lead to feelings of bitterness, envy, and frustration. We see that here regularly. That is the motivation for this post. I'll paraphrase Peter Fenner: 'If we didn't do what we didn't need to do we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it.' When we first investigate the mind and its essence, it is an effortful process. We must first recognize that we are lost in thought. We then must clearly and definitively recognize what it is to not be lost in thought. We then must stabilize this experience through repetitive recognition we are in distraction, release, and continue... This takes effort and concentration and this is a skill that can be cultivated. Perhaps there are a few fortunate folks who can simply recognize there is nothing to be done but release and that is enough. E Ma Ho! I am not one of those... A good illustration of this progression is in the practice of calm abiding or zhiné. This is a basic Tibetan meditation practice that cultivates concentration while simultaneously pointing out the mind's essence, and helping to achieve stability. It's a powerful practice that shows results within a few weeks or even days when practiced properly. In zhiné practice, there are 3 stages: 1. Effortful zhiné - the attitude towards maintaining concentration is sometimes described as being similar to an old person threading the eye of a needle 2. Natural zhiné - at this level of skill we can rest in the experience of concentration with no effort, when distracted we can once again simply release into that experience 3. Ultimate zhiné - at this level resting in the nature of mind is already always there, there is not even the effort of recognizing distraction and returning to calm abiding as any and all potential distractions self-liberate spontaneously, never reaching the point of true distraction. Once we have gained sufficient clarity and stability, we can begin to let go of all effort and remain in non-distraction. At that point, we clearly see that the only way to be in that state of being is through non-effort. At that point, resting in the simple state of being is not a skill, it is simply happening. If no skill was involved, we would be able to simply be in that space of effortless, unfabricated being without distraction at will. I respectfully suggest that this is not the case for most people de novo. Without question, Small Fur and Spotless both offer superb advice and genuine insight to practitioners. Anyone who can recognize and sustain clarity through simple release of effort are indeed fortunate. For those who are unable to simply rest effortlessly in clarity, effortful practice engaging the monkey mind in a productive direction are necessary and beneficial. _/\_

tooth

Yes!

A few things I've enjoyed watching recently, not necessarily films or enlightened... Mr. Robot Sense8 Coco Get Out! Arrival

I practice zhiné and it is indeed very similar to the description of trataka. I use the Tibetan letter A rather than a candle. It's an extremely effective method of developing concentration and developing a direct understanding of the distinction between the mind and the mind's nature. In Dzogchen, zhiné is used to introduce the student to the nature of mind. Any object will do but some are probably more conducive to practice than others.

I miss mat black, rain, sun in my eyes, and hagar to name a few...

I thought the community might enjoy this quotation, I like it quite a bit: Don't Worry About Progress Don’t worry if you think you’re not making progress. I can assure you it is virtually impossible to be in a place like this [satsang] and not make progress. It is your ego that tries to fool you. Remember your mind does not wish to be destroyed. Therefore it will fight you with every breath and tell you you’re wasting your time, if it were true you would already be enlightened. Your mind will tell you go somewhere else, go do this and go do that, keep searching, keep looking. It will never tell you there’s nothing to look for. It will never tell you there’s nothing to do. It will never tell you just be yourself, awaken. It will put you through all kinds of trials and tribulations. It will even make you believe that the more you suffer, the greater the value. But if you’re wise, you will simply observe, and watch your mind telling you all these things. You will not fight, because your mind will always win. You will simply dissolve your mind through observation, through becoming the witness, or by asking “to whom do these thoughts come?” And the mind will grow weaker. But it will really fight you. It will cause you to observe many dastardly things in this world, and perhaps some upheavals in your life also. To make you believe in your mind and its power. I guess that’s what Jesus meant when he said “Get thee behind me Satan!” In other words his mind was trying to tell him things are wrong, you’re wasting your time. So he named his mind Satan. And told it “don’t bother me, don’t come up with all these things: I don’t believe in you, you’re a liar.” That’s exactly what you must do. Let the mind show us the worst. Allow the ego to do what it wants. But you be the observer, the witness. Hold on tight to the ’I’. And follow the I thread to the heart. And you’ll start laughing for you’ll come to the conclusion, there never was a mind, there never was an I, there never was an ego, there never were problems, there never was a world, there never was a personal God, there never was karma, there’s no such thing as enlightenment, there’s no such thing as awakening. You are already That. So be it. ~ Sri Robert Adams

I'm not sure I would necessarily equate sage with immortal. The Hanzi in this chapter refers to the sage - 聖人 (sheng ren) An immortal is usually referred to as 仙 (xian) or 神仙 ( shen xian) Certainly there is some precedent for interchanging sage and immortal, just as there is precedent in using either word to refer to an enlightened one in the Buddhist sense.

I'd like to add that it is equally valid to state that all tastes are shared given that the union occurs in non-dual space. In that space, there is no personal distinction.

Yes, it makes good sense. I hope you got some rest! Energy can be defined as the capacity for a system to do work. It is intended to refer to physical systems but if we are careful to define our terms, I think it a useful concept to apply here. In the spiritual arena, we can look at the system as the practitioner, the guru, and the lineage. The work is spiritual practice and growth, preservation of the system and working towards the benefit of sentient beings. The energy includes the blessings of the lineage and the devotion of the practitioners, among other things. Just one way to look at it. It may not be a correct usage of the term, strictly speaking, but I find it to be consistent with the intended meaning of energy and helpful for appreciating the relationship between the lineage and practitioners.

I believe the traditional position would be no - it is not possible to share an actual direct taste.

A close, supportive, and loving relationship are certainly components of an energetic connection. We all seem to be in some degree of agreement that there is a level of foundational connectivity, whether we refer to it in terms of non-duality, oneness, God, whatever... That is the basis for my comment that our natural state is connected and that disconnection is the source of our troubles. People often use the word 'energy' loosely, particularly in the New Age (not using that as a negative), and I sometimes wonder precisely what they are referring to. Like Miroku, I try to use the "E" word with some degree of caution. This is in part due to my scientific background. Spiritual practice and growth has expanded my understanding of what can be labelled energy but to answer your final question, I would need to know precisely what you are referring to by "energetic transmission" whether that be between minds or energy bodies. You seem to draw a line of distinction between "energetic transmission" of minds/energies bodies, and things like closeness, love, support, openness, and sharing. For me, these are all powerful forms of energetic transmission involving the mind and energy body.

These are two different things. Guru yoga is very specific - it is letting go of the mind and all of its "stuff" and resting in its unadulterated, unfabricated essence. I don't think it would be accurate to say that anything is being transmitted or merged. Connection does not necessarily imply transmission. I think Miroku's response is spot on with one exception, I do think there is a powerful energetic connection going on. It all depends on how we define energy. So much of this sort of discussion tends to be an apples/oranges thing. For example, no one has adequately defined for me what is being merged, what merger means, and so forth. The relationship between teacher and student is a human relationship, this is not equivalent to guru yoga.. All sorts of things are being transmitted as between any 2 human beings. Hopefully most of what is being transmitted is information and energy that is supportive of both teacher and student. Absolutely, it can be a very powerful, close, and loving relationship. In fact, the relationship to the teacher and the lineage is at the heart of guru yoga. Does connection need a purpose? It's my position that connection is our natural tendency and our natural state. The ills of the world, IMO, are largely due to a lack of connection. Life in samsara is nothing other than a lack of connection. For sure the connection between teacher and student is intended to and does help and support spiritual growth and realization on many levels. There is also value in connection outside of spiritual objectives, however, when you boil it down it seems that anything related to openness and connection are ultimately useful in our spiritual lives.

Yes, guru yoga is very energetically direct and is all about connecting. I personally think the word merge is not the most accurate in this case for the reasons I note above. The connection is with the dharmakaya, the basis. It is solely experiential and needs to be done by each individual. No one can do it for another. Reading, discussing, and having a good teacher are all valuable supports but not of those are guru yoga. Personal practice leads to having direct experience and insight. Having that direct, personal insight is ultimately what is necessary to experience the mind's nature, correctly identify that with certainty, and develop stability there.

Direct introduction means using whatever tools are necessary to insure that the student has a personal experience of, or at least a glimpse, of the mind and its essence. As far as I am aware, our tradition teaches that one person cannot show or immerse another in the nature of mind. It is something an individual must do for themselves with appropriate guidance and feedback. The primary tool is personal practice and the primary practice in our tradition is zhiné. Zhiné is used to introduce the neophyte to the mind and its essence. It is also used for developing certainty, confidence, and stability in resting there. Explaining and talking is a valuable support but is secondary to the experience. There are also many non-verbal, non-conceptual transmissions that occur between teacher and student that I alluded to above but I'm not aware of any teachings in our tradition that suggest that one person can cause another to experience the essence of mind directly. I base this on direct teachings on the Nature of Mind that I've received from multiple Bön teachers, including the recently deceased Menri Trizin - head of the faith. To comment on "merging like activities" I'd need to understand a bit more about what you mean by that. At this point I'm not sure what OP you're referring to as I think this was split from another thread. In our tradition, union with the guru occurs at the level of dharmakaya. At that level, it is meaningless to discuss merging as there are no formations to merge or separate. As I mentioned earlier, the process is more one of release and liberation.

No, not simply an intellectual description. The tradition I follow is old and complex. There are many methods of introduction among the 3 dzogchen lineages in our tradition. Not being a master or teacher of this tradition myself, I can only speak to what I've been exposed to. There is a role for intellectual description and this comes out in the teachings from the various tantras. There are also conceptual examples that are traditionally offered which point to different principles or characteristics of the state. Here are six classic examples: It is like a butter lamp - self-illuminated, dispelling the darkness of ignorance Like a lotus - unstained and primordially pure, arising in the mud and yet untainted Like the sun - shining from the beginning of time, without beginning or end Like a mirror - able to host anything without bias and yet untouched by whatever arises Like a crystal egg - transparent and clear, hiding nothing Like the sky - without center or boundary, allowing and embracing everything, excluding nothing There is guided meditation. The teacher guides the student like an experienced tour guide. After guided meditation there are the questions and discussions that allow us to clarify our experience, hear the experience of others, and receive feedback from the teacher which brings us closer. There are independent meditative exercises and practices. One of the most effective in our tradition is referred to as zhiné or calm abiding. It comes from the A-Khrid Dzogchen lineage. It is like shamtha and vipassana combined and is practiced by focusing attention on the Tibetan letter A. It is in these practices where we have the opportunity to identify the basis and develop confidence and certainty in the view. There is the conduct, simply being in the presence of a realized master has enormous value. Watching, listening, feeling, interacting - all of it guides us closer. There are signs - qualities and changes that we see in ourselves that indicate we have correctly identified the view, meditation, and conduct, and are an indication that we're headed in the right direction. So the introduction is a mutual endeavor and goes far beyond a simple passing of information. The teacher can do quite a bit to guide us to the source but at the end of the day it is up to us, we must bring the experience into our own lives and allow it to touch us and take root in our hearts.

Intersting discussion. My own experience of guru yoga is not that of a merger of my mind with the mind of another or even with the essence. My mind has never been separate from its essence for an instant, like a wave has never been separate from the ocean, but the awareness of that essence is blocked by the very mind itself - discursive thought, grasping at form and formless, and so on... In guru yoga, the mind is liberated and pristine awareness rests in its own place, that is to say that awareness and emptiness abide as inseparable, abiding as bliss. This is resting in the Nature of Mind, it is nothing other than the nature of primordial Buddhahood. For me, guru yoga is better described as a liberation of mind and a return to the source. Merger has an implication of a mixing or blending, a coalescence which retains elements of what is being merged. Union with the primordial Buddha, which is resting in the Nature of Mind, retains nothing. While the potential is there for all arising, the essence itself is stainless, allowing all to spontaneously liberate, leaving nothing but primordial purity and clarity. It is like tossing paint into the air, nothing sticks. There are several classical examples that are used to describe this. The Nature of Mind is like the lotus flower which blossoms in mud and yet remains pure and unstained. It is like a mirror which hosts all reflections without bias but is untouched and unchanged by anything it reflects. It is like a crystal, clear and transparent, in which nothing is hidden. In that space, what is there to merge or separate? Not sure if my words are of any value. I also don't defend them as being philosophically correct. Just musings of a mediocre practitioner.

Thanks

Hi Jonesboy, Can you clarify what you mean by "emptiness is beyond the light?" Thanks Steve

I think there are different ways we can look at and work with chakras. I'll share one perspective. Each chakra is associated with specific energetic characteristics, this can vary a bit by tradition. When there are blockages associated with a chakra, one will manifest negative or samsaric characteristics associated with that chakra. When the blockages are cleared, one will manifest positive or enlightened qualities associated with that chakra. This will come through in our dreams, in our daily conduct, our meditation practice, and so on. One example is the throat chakra - when blockages are present there the speech will be filled with complaining, dissatisfaction, criticism, and so forth. Not only the audible speech but the internal narrative. When cleared or open, the speech will be loving, caring, supportive of others, and the internal chatter will be gone or at least far less active.

I suspect that lineages which stand the test of time are created in retrospect by their followers. Lineages created by "founders" are likely short-lived creations of the ego. Just a guess.

Go with what you feel. Shamatha is an extremely valuable skill for all meditative practice, for all of life. As the internal dialogue quiets, the mind naturally looks at the looker and insight will naturally arise. In my opinion and experience, insight is more likely to occur to a tranquil mind than a turbulent mind. That said, insight can occur spontaneously to anyone at anytime. Nevertheless, skill in shamatha will serve you well even beyond insight.

Thank you for the beautiful music!

It doesn't sound at all far out to me, 3bob... far more in than out.

Recognizing what is open and closed in ourselves is probably more valuable and more accurate than speculating about what is open in others. What we may think is open or closed in someone probably says more about us, and how we relate to the other person, than what it says about the other person.