doc benway

Mine as well

Recommended short story - https://steveschutzman.com/the-bank-robbery

I understand your point and maintain that contradictions can give us an opportunity for growth and deeper understanding, particularly in the spiritual arena. Rather than looking at them as problems, the quote I offered suggests they can be opportunities. Everyone experiences challenges, it’s not optional. The only option we have is how we deal with them. We can avoid them but that rarely leads to a long term solution. Over time they tend to gain power and eventually catch up to us. Another approach is to face them with full awareness and openness. When we face them with awareness and openness we tend to have access to more possible solutions and if there is no solution, we can stay with the experience and eventually find a way to be OK without one. The whole subject surrounding impermanence is fascinating and, for me at least, worthy of considerable reflection, practice, and study. Impermanence relates to all things that are conditional. When considering that which is unconditional, the same rules don’t really apply. For example, we often see “space” used as a metaphor for the ground of being, particularly in dzogchen. This is because space has unique and particular characteristics that help us to come to a deeper understanding of the unconditional. These characteristics include the fact that space is indestructible, unbounded, unborn, undying, has no edge or center, and so forth. When we consider these characteristics, especially that space is indestructible, how can we say that it is impermanent? So this is where the idea comes in that while everything in our field of experience is impermanent, the fundamental ground of being is not. Regarding the prolonged or permanent nature of liberation, it has to do with the fact that the liberation referred to in dzogchen is not related to a subject being liberated from an object or a set of circumstances. It is more related to the sense of individual identity shifting as a consequence of non-dual realization. This is a long term shift. It’s not that one no longer encounters problems but rather that we don’t identify with the subject as strongly so that problems tend to come and go without causing much turbulence. Anyway, just some thoughts on an interesting topic. Thanks for your comments.

If you ever want to discuss my contradiction, please point it out. Perhaps I could learn something that way. Contradictions in spiritual discussion sometimes have a different significance than they do in rational arguments. I have benefited from this guidance from a great poet and teacher. “And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you." ~ John O’Donohue

I enjoy the similarity of discussions here and …

My pleasure, I don't mind but also not sure my answers will be satisfying! No, there is no renunciation in dzogchen whatsoever. That said, nearly every practitioner of dzogchen has at some point engaged in sutric or tantric practice, renouncing or committing to samaya vows but none of this is a part of the dzogchen path which is one of radical non-avoidance. No, I don't think it would accurate to say that. To posit an identity of any sort that takes the place of the individual, conditioned identity would be to simply substitute a more sophisticated conceptual identity which would continue the cycle as you point out. From the side of the absolute, there is no need tot fill that space created by the absence of self-identification. From the side of the conceptual mind, we need to fill that gap or we are unable to continue the dialogue, internally or externally. Consequently we can use terms and concepts to describe what is present when the self-identification drops away but these are simply conceptual labels that attempt to communicate characteristics of the ineffable, nothing more. We can list a variety of characteristics but must not mistake them for what they describe. Interestingly, what we describe when we engage in this exercise is not the absolute itself but only the obstacles we experience as a part of our samsaric nature. I hope that makes some sense. Anytime @whocoulditbe? PS - another way to say it is that if there is a sense of me present that is identifying with something, no matter how great or small, there is already subject/object duality present and this is a wrong not the dzogchen view

@liminal_luke and @Daniel I’ll leave it to others to quote Buddha Shakyamuni. I can best speak to the way I’ve been taught to practice and understand dzogchen. Dzogchen is unequivocally rooted in non-avoidance. The view is to be completely open to each and every moment. Consequently, all experience becomes the path. The sutric path is different. Avoidance of actions leading to negative karma is the method - renunciation. Tantric practice does not avoid but rather transforms. Dzogchen is a path of leaving experience just as it is, allowing full engagement and spontaneous liberation. The only thing that is extinguished, or maybe better to say seen through, is the illusion of my existence as a separate and independent agent. And this has to be spontaneous and experiential in nature, not conscious avoidance or denial. When the identification with a limited and separate sense of self is no longer as much of an obstacle, through grace, understanding, or practice, there is a profound and pervasive sense of completeness, of belonging, of being that is often described as great bliss. It is called great because it is unconditional, it is called bliss because there is no limitation or karmic traces related to identification with a separate and limited body and mind. As always this is just my flawed understanding and explanation, ymmv

Be safe my Mexican and Californian friends! ❤️

I haven’t read much of this thread but wanted to comment on this. One error in your argument can be seen in the comments above. Non-duality is not something one escapes into. There is no severing of pain and holding on to joy. Non-duality is not in any way devoid of experience, not at all blank in any sense. These are wrong views. I’m coming from a dzogchen background so I am not referring to nirvana as non-duality. Non-duality embraces both nirvana and samsara in the dzogchen paradigm.

For me, this instruction is inviting me to look inside and to find something in myself that is similar to what I can observe in the natural world around me. It is not overly obvious or explicit, it is subtle and deep. It is something to which I'm often disconnected. It's qualities include spontaneity, purity, and authenticity among others. It cannot be created or destroyed, it cannot be grasped or even named in a meaningful way, but it is very real and the ultimate resource.

I don’t need an amulet for that!

I love this little parable by Anthony Demello on the relationship between spirituality and religion. ”After many years of labour an inventor discovered the art of making fire. He took his tools to the snow-clad northern regions and initiated a tribe into the art — and the advantages — of making fire. The people became so absorbed in this novelty that it did not occur to them to thank the inventor who one day quietly slipped away. Being one of those rare human beings endowed with greatness, he had no desire to be remembered or revered; all he sought was the satisfaction of knowing that someone had benefited from his discovery. The next tribe he went to was just as eager to learn as the first. But the local priests, jealous of the stranger’s hold on the people, had him assassinated. To allay any suspicion of the crime, they had a portrait of the Great Inventor enthroned upon the main altar of the temple; and a liturgy designed so that his name would be revered and his memory kept alive. The greatest care was taken that not a single rubric of the liturgy was altered or omitted. The tools for making (ire were enshrined within a casket and were said to bring healing to all who laid their hands on them with faith. The High Priest himself undertook the task of compiling a Life of the Inventor. This became the Holy book in which his loving kindness was offered as an example for all to emulate, his glorious deeds were eulogized, his superhuman nature made an article of faith. The priests saw to it that the Book was handed down to future generations, while they authoritatively interpreted the meaning of his words and the significance of his holy life and death. And they ruthlessly punished with death or excommunication anyone who deviated from their doctrine. Caught up as they were in these religious tasks, the people completely forgot the art of making fire.”

99.9% of climate scientists agree that climate change is real AND significantly impacted by human behavior, an unprecedented concordance. And their conclusions are in opposition to the interests of the deepest pockets on the planet… About 30-40% of Americans don’t believe them. That lack of belief IMO is directly related to trust. Similar statistics regarding natural selection. People choose their paradigms and are skilled at reifying and defending them.

The question is how many are aware of this?

Unpopular opinion #37: Nearly everything everyone says here is an expression of their own personal condition and experience and has relatively little to do with the outside world.

China

Make Dao Great Again!

My new slogan - MDGA

I appreciate you sharing your ideas and experience. The only thing I feel is slightly different for me is that we don't become one with the magnificence of universe, rather my experience is that we become aware of our magnificence as the universe, never having been separate from it for an instant, only unaware. Mine too.... _/\_

Another consideration is the audience to whom Rinpoche is speaking. For many of us there is effort required to recognize our disconnection, to return to the presence and fullness of this moment, and to remain connected, living from that openness. The novice needs a reminder, support, and effort. @silent thunder describes a relatively mature and stable relationship with his essence, a rare and beautiful thing. 🙏🏼❤️🙏🏼

Did I? I don't recall ever feeling that way about you personally and have no recollection of calling you a cancer. I did, and do, feel that way about the fake-conservative, fake-christian, alt-right fascist movement in US politics. It directly threatens the lives and well being of millions of women, non-whites, immigrants, and LGBTQ human beings in my country, including many close friends and family. If you identify with that group of sick authoritarian bullies then there's not much more for me to say other than good riddance. Somehow I can't picture you as a part of that cult but one never knows. I have nothing against you personally and genuinely apologize for offending you. I've never felt anything but warmth for you in my heart and I have always enjoyed your presence and contributions here. All that said, I feel less connection to the forum lately. I've taken an indefinite break from moderating and if it's me keeping you away, that may not be much of an issue moving forward.

I feel the same as Luke. I miss a lot of folks that were affected by the ban. Here are some interesting laws on the books in my home state - https://www.onlyinyourstate.com/maryland/crazy-laws-md/ One of them is that it's against the law to take a lion to the movies, WTF?!

Absolutely, if what we study and practice is real then every appearance is ultimately ME and all love and warmth I send outward is benefiting ME as well as others.

Years ago a very time consuming and tedious part of my job was dictating reports on my interaction with people. I hated it, such a waste of time! I returned to work after a 10 day silent retreat and it completely shifted Every dictation was like a mantra. As I chanted the words I could feel the person in my heart and I could feel a warm and loving sense of healing radiating to them with every word I uttered. It was beautiful and completely unexpected. I tried to share my experience with my colleagues but they thought I was crazy, they didn’t have the ears to hear what I was saying. Now most of our documentation is clicking buttons and typing into an app though I still dictate some of it. Not quite as easy to feel the love but still possible.