doc benway

Same thing happens when you spend too much time online...

That first form is quite interesting and beautiful. My only criticism is that when she is issuing force (fajin), she doesn't seem to get her body and waist into it enough. Fajin is an expression of whole body unified force. It seems to be too much coming from the arms and legs in her form. That said, I'm always cautious about judging others' forms, especially on video. Some folks have great form, can't push their way out of a paper bag. Others have crappy form and have kicked my ass...

Nice summary. I suspect the Tibetan traditions are an amalgam of local and imported customs not just Indian, even more so among the Bönpos. I don't think it was easy for the Dalai Lama. He went against millennia of anti-Bönpo sentiment. As a practicing Bönpo, I think he deserves a lot of credit for his stance and actions on the subject though you are certainly entitled to disagree. In general, paths are not superior or inferior to one another, it's far more accurate and practical to discuss paths in terms of more or less suitable for a given individual. Your humility and kind response reflects the quality of your character. I greatly appreciate that - I bear no grudge. _/\_ When Buddhist and Bön leaders and teachers are elevated and treated royally, it is important to understand that what is being honored is the inner guru, the nature of mind, that is within all of us. The person or deity is simply a representation of what is within each of us already, waiting to blossom; and the Tibetan approach is such that a close and loving relationship with the guru is felt to be the most direct way for someone to connect with that inner nature. When you look at their geographical location, primitive living conditions, absence of communication and libraries, and so forth. No doubt it was the most effective, if not only, method they had available. Not saying it is right, wrong, better, or worse but it does work well in the Tibetan culture. We are not worshiping a human (or a deity for that matter), we are acknowledging and honoring the degree to which they embody and express the enlightened qualities of the inner teacher - Kuntuzangpo. Furthermore, the guru is the one who has realized and helped us to realize that inner nature and for many it is a very real and very precious gift that elicits a great deal of appreciation and, to some degree, reverence. The pomp and circumstance is certainly a turn off for a lot of people, it was for me at one point. I need to remain sensitive to that - different strokes for different folks and all that. There is an excellent book about that - Bo and Bön by Dmitry Ermakov I have experience practicing both Daoist cultivation and Yungdrung Bön. There are clearly many profound similarities, and many differences. I have no idea or opinion about what came from where, only that they are beautiful and effective practices and that I am extraordinarily lucky to have come into contact with the practices, teachers, and lineages.

Actually Bön roots most likely came from Persia to Tibet but the history is a bit uncertain. While some like to say Bön and Buddhist roots came from Daoist practices, my Daoist master from Taiwan says just the opposite... The story of Buddhism and Bön is basically the story of every indigenous tradition encountering a "more sophisticated" civilization. The choice tends to be assimilation or genocide. The Bönpos were able to assimilate.

I don't feel attacked but I don't feel good about sharing things that have meaning for me and have them ridiculed. There are negative aspects to everything on the Earth to someone. The judgement and reaction, the negativity, is in us not in the object. This is how we create our reality. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that so rather than argue with you, easiest to simply hide the photos behind a button. I recognize that not everyone is comfortable with the Bön and Buddhist paradigms and that's fine as it is.

Hi Liminal, Yes, I believe you would find the workshop worthwhile in addition to the free online teachings. It's set up like his other online courses. The sharing of dreams with other participants and opportunity to ask Rinpoche questions are very helpful. It also contains a lot more detail about the practices than can be covered in a few 1 hour teachings. If you decide to do it, let me know what you think. I took the course a few years ago and got a lot out of it, even more so than reading the book.

Thanks Kar3n!

I'd like to see the mods split off the trollish baiting and derailment in this thread.

I'm no expert in Wu style. Also, there are a few variations. Here is a nice video of a Wu fast form: And another nice older demo, the form starts at 2:40

Forgive me for posting photos of the leaders of Tibetan Buddhism and Bön, in a thread about Tibetan Buddhism and Bön... I've hidden them so you can rest easy. Peace _/\_

His Holiness 33 Menri Trizin Lungtok Tenpai Nyima Rinpoche For those interested in Tibetan Bön:

Chen small frame

Leave the poor man alone. He does not want a visit from you. Peace

The more "real" the situation, the smaller the frame needs to be, I think that's why Wu is so effective. You can't move quickly in large frame, but it's great for training power, examples Yang Chen Fu and Chen Medium frame is a nice compromise, powerful yet flexible - great training tool, example Chen Pan Ling and Yang old styles Small frame in some ways is the highest level of practice, integrating the power generation with stances that allow for utility of movement, examples Wu and Chen

With due respect, I disagree - I do not give this message to people. It invalidates their genuine experience which may be positive and negative and in either case is genuine. If we are not experiencing bad and negative things, we are not touching the whole truth of our lives. We are still closed to some things. Spiritual growth opens us to truth and truth has both light and dark sides. Opening the heart necessarily involves some pain. There are painful and challenging transitions and in the long run there should be stability and reconciliation. When you break your leg and it hurts, it is a warning sign that something is damaged and one needs to take care. It does not mean the pain is wrong or bad. To the contrary, it is necessary and protective. When we experience pain in our lives and in our practice, it is calling our attention to something that needs expression. I agree that negative experience can be a sign of improper practice, but it can also be a sign of opening and deeper connection and experience.

"Also my personal experiences aren't all puppies and rainbows, most of them are very dark, and that doesn't sell well. People want to be reassured that everything is going to be ok, and there is no way to say otherwise without becoming the bad guy" Life is very dark for a lot of people. Sometimes in my practice I feel their pain deeply and just cry. Other times I feel the love and joy and just dissolve. There is nothing to sell. The people who want to be reassured that everything is going to be ok, should be reassured. Waking up is a calling not a product. Those who feel drawn to peer behind the masque need to be prepared and supported for what lies beneath. Like yin and yang it encompasses both extremes and what lies between. Our practice should and will support us, provided we have a credible practice and necessary guidance. That doesn't mean it's all roses. I've been to some pretty dark places, places I didn't know existed in me. And it's not always easy to leave those places, they have a way of lingering or recurring. With patience and persistence we can transcend all of it if we're committed.

The old video is showing the fast form for martial training. It's done like you're pushing hands... shadow boxing... The slow form is more for cultivation of qi. Yeah, I've heard shit about Bruce too, and others... People don't always have their expectations satisfied. Whose problem is that? Anyway - thanks for the kind response.

What are you interested in? History, culture, art, shamanism, sutric, tantric, dzoghcen practices? Lots of books on Bön - https://www.namsebangdzo.com/Books_on_Bon_s/2453.htm

The Bön / Buddhist history is harsh. Lots of differing perspectives, none of them pretty. Buddhism has a substantial history of violence in and outside of Tibet. The beauty lies in the reconciliation and collaboration fostered by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama and others. That is the lesson to take away. E Ma Ho! For those interested in Buddhism and Bön:

I'd like to offer some opposing viewpoints to balance the discussion. Wu style taijiquan has a history of being esteemed for martial efficacy. I made the point in another thread that, unlike in other martial arts, taijiquan form practice is not simply practicing postures that are martially effective. It is about cultivating coordination and integration of body, mind, and energy in order to generate whole body power whether sensing or issuing. Whether the martial intent of the postures is explicitly obvious is irrelevant, neigong and qigong combined with body movement is the cultivation. The overtly martial practice takes an entirely different form - solo drills, partner drills, body toughening, strength training, and so forth. I think the Wu videos posted are excellent. The first one maybe a little stiff. Both very powerful and integrated. I learned about Wu to judge international taijiquan forms and tui shou competition and know some masterful and powerful Wu stylists. Beware of underestimating a style by its form, you may simply not understand it. I learned that lesson in pushing competition. Here's an old Wu military video: Bruce Frantzis has a large and dedicated following for good reason. He's a powerful and dedicated practitioner with excellent lineage. No teacher can please everyone and each of us needs something different out of our schools and styles and teachers. No one benefits from speaking poorly of others. I don't study Wu and I've never trained with Bruce but I know quality when I see it.

What benefits are you referring to?

Great posts! Thank you for that. Forgive me for being critical but I would urge caution whenever using the word 'real' in the context of Buddhism, particularly Madhyamaka. Empty does not refute realness, it refutes an independent, inherent mode of existence. One can equally look at the mode of one's existence as empty (sunya) or full (pratiyasamutpada). Different sides of the same coin. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think the point is worth making because so many people new to the concepts misinterpret them as nihilistic. I couldn't agree more about Goenka's approach but I'm interested in hearing more about your concerns with secular mindfulness in general.

I thoroughly enjoy humor, especially in tense or contentious situations. In most cases it's a welcome relief. In some cases it can appear trite or unnecessary, but I recognize that's only my reaction to it. Others may find the same post hilarious. If I find myself reacting negatively to something humorous, that's a red flag that I need to look inside and see what is causing so much reactivity and seriousness in me. One of the benefits of participating in this forum is that it allows me to look at myself more deeply based on how I respond to others. I try to ask myself questions like - why am I posting this? What role is my ego playing? Why can't I let go even if the other party can't or won't see me point? And so on... It really has been helpful to work on this over the years and for that I'm appreciative of all of you.

I don't know about the book. Briefly - Theravada, most popular in southeast Asia, focuses on the Pali canon of scriptures (the oldest Buddhist writings) and emphasizes personal, individual liberation. Mahayana, most popular in northern Asia, includes the Pali canon and later writings, particularly those on emptiness, Buddha nature, and the way of the Bodhisattva. Here the emphasis is on personal liberation as a means to support all sentient beings in their transition towards ultimate liberation. Vajrayana is a subset of Mahayana, although some list it as a third branch, which emphasizes energetic practices of self-transformation, as opposed to the sutric approach of renunciation, in order to achieve more rapid personal liberation with the ultimate goal of helping all sentient beings to be liberated from suffering. It's primarily found in the Himalayas and is based on writings known as Tantras. I hope that's helpful.

PS - most of my formal training and practice has been Daoist but in recent years I've focused more on Bönpo teachings and practices, and I don't claim to be an authority on either