doc benway

Sedona and the Grand Canyon are amazing places. I also highly recommend the Olympic Peninsula and Mt. Ranier National Park.

Sorry I didn't read the whole thread before my first reply. To find the Divine we can adopt the attitude of prayer - trust that there is something deeper and more wise than our intellect and reason and open to what it has to offer. Ask for help, embrace our vulnerability and helplessness. This is very unfamiliar to many and may even seem foolish but can be very powerful if it comes from a place of sincerity. Wisdom to a lama is the realization of emptiness, it is the knowledge that the the one who is trying to decide is an illusion. Finding Wisdom is letting go of what we already know and opening to what is new and fresh, what is there when everything else is released. One of my favorite teachers was a poet priest turned Celtic mystic named John O'Donohue. I'll share a quote of his that I love which may not be specifically about sitting on the crossroads but may have something to offer. It's been enormously helpful to me: "And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discovery a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you." That contradiction is the crossroads, what is it trying to teach you? The lesson may be deeper than the choice it represents. Good luck!

If I am having trouble making a decision, I recognize two things - 1. I've analyzed enough... the intellect isn't going to provide the answer 2. The heart is not clear or I'm not hearing what it's trying to tell me My approach is to rest and remain open. When the intellect begins to do its thing again, I notice and allow it to rest. As I quiet and get out of the way, I trust that the right choice will come from a deeper, subtler place when it's ripe and ready to come - assuming a choice needs to be made at all. It is often the case that after all of the struggle, there's really nothing to decide, as Rene shared. The most important part for me is to trust the silence and the openness.

I'll lovingly and respectfully disagree with some of this. I've met folks who have experienced deep Awakening with no experience with Vipassana practice whatsoever. I would also propose that not everyone who practices Vipassana over a long period of time experiences Complete Enlightenment. There are factors of karma involved and there are many paths for many different creatures. And no doubt Vipassana is wonderful and powerful for many.

Yes

Enjoying some nice Lipton's iced tea with sugar right now! Yum

Nice to hear you ramble, qicat. Very little is more awe-inspiring than a genuine feeling of connection to a wisdom lineage, a true master, and a supportive sangha. Except, of course, the direct experience of that "Buddha" as the very stuff of which you are a manifestation. It has never been farther from you than your own mind and skin. The transmission is there to try and help us experience the taste, or at least invite us to be open to the possibility, and to show us the door in ourselves where we can deepen that relationship. The master can't transmit to you what you already are, at best she can create a conducive environment and get you in the mood. Everything else is your karma and predilection. _/\_

Silence is not the absence of sound, it is the absence of self. - Anthony DeMello

The thought that usurps the title "thinker" or "observer" is used to having her way with your attention. It is habitual and therefore comfortable and effortless. In making the transition to a different emphasis on attention, there is enormous resistance. It is like untying a piece of rolled up paper that's been rolled for decades, it will not flatten easily. Practices like shamatha or zhine have 3 stages - 1. Effortful - much energy is required to maintain focus 2. Effortless - we can rest relax into the experience with little or no exertion 3. Ultimate - we no longer even relax, it is of itself so, nothing to do and no one to do it... With skillful practice, persistence, and patience, it is possible to dis-identify with the "thinker" and simply allow the thoughts to come and go without engaging. Over time it takes less effort and, eventually, it is restful and rejuvenating. Like BES says, take it slow.

Exactly, what else do "I" have to work with? When I can let go, there is nothing left to do.

How to give rise? Get out of the way! It happens of itself. It already is... it is the 'you' that is in the way. You have touched upon the important mechanics of meditation. There is presence, clarity, and relaxing (I prefer words like resting, opening, letting go). It is important that the 'investigative attitude' not be a part of the meditation. It is valuable before and after meditation to motivate and integrate the experience. If it is a part of the meditation, it simply blocks the letting go of the one who is the obstacle. Above all, it takes time (for most), patience, and persistence. Some would add that things like faith, devotion, trust, and prayer are extremely helpful. I think this is because it transcends cause and effect - a lifetime of skillful practice may not yield fruit while it may emerge in an instant for a non-practitioner. There is that quality of grace or blessing. It all depends on your unique constitution and conditioning, I think.

Happy Songkran!

I think there is deeply important. The one that we take seriously is, in fact, the source of all of our problems. Ultimately, that is what needs to be addressed. It's interesting to see some common threads. Three important points that I would pass on are: Don't take yourself too seriously, it is you who is the problem Others can give you guidance, but you must do the work for yourself Awareness is the key

Are you being pushed to take the earthly view? Or do you already simply have it? I think that view simply exists, it must be acknowledged and it is the frame of reference within which we operate. We don't need to do anything to have that view, it is the product of our collective human karma and conditioning. To transcend that view requires a fundamental alteration. It is often portrayed as killing oneself, as dying to the self. For many, there is a need to seek isolation in order to connect with a deeper experience of Self - this could be the message in the description of killing friends and family. Only after it is found and stabilized are they able to return and integrate. Being called weak by women may represent a challenge to the ego and to the one who would cut through that ego. The process of connecting with the truth is often described as cutting through, as in the Dzogchen tradition - Trekchöd (cutting through) is the method of connecting with one's true nature. There is a practice in Buddhism called Chöd, which is figuratively cutting oneself to pieces and offering the body and mind to demons and those less fortunate, and is traditionally practiced in very threatening and unsafe environments, alone and at night. Demello speaks well about how it can be a very painful process, how we don't want to wake up. We are very comfortable in our illusion and ignorance, opening ourselves involves extreme vulnerability and subjects us to a degree of empathy that can be devastating to some who aren't prepared. Perhaps there is a clue to what's going on in the fact that many of the ancient books of wisdom are full of violence and contradiction, and yet at there core are similar principles of love, compassion, and wholeness. I think that represents the Two Truths to which manitou alludes. In my opinion and experience, teachings are all best viewed as myth, as allegory, as fable, not as indisputable and literal fact. Those who take these teachings literally generally make a mess of things - we see that very clearly in Islam, in Christianity. I've discussed the Gita with Hindu practitioners on occasion and I've yet to meet one who takes the story as literal fact. They take it as a guide, a multi-layered story that speaks to us on multiple levels. And I know relatively little about the Gita, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

From my perspective, anyone who proposes that it is OK to kill others in pursuit of spiritual goals has not had an insight into the nature of mind. Bodhicitta is the infinite source of pure compassion - the one who would pursue spiritual goals is seen as the illusion it is. The former are more akin to political extremists hijacking spirituality or religion as a justification for their ignorance. We are invited to learn from the ancient books, not necessarily accept everything they portray at face value.

Space is used as many of its characteristics are instructive.Space is unbounded, limitless, empty, indestructible, unborn, undying, and so forth. Again, not a definition but only a description of certain attributes.

The Buddhists and Bönpos prefer to use 'empty' or 'space' rather than 'existence' because that is their view of the nature of 'existence' you refer to. One of the subtle but fundamental differences between Vedic and Madhyamika philosophy, I believe. It seems we are otherwise speaking a very similar language.

I will respectfully decline to define but I'll do my best to describe. I'm using Pure to describe the clear, unstained, unbiased aspect (emptiness/space) of the awakened experience. Knowing-ness refers to Rigpa which I think is best translated into English as Knowing or Knowledge (some use presence or awareness). It's Display refers to the infinite potential that lies within that inseparability of space and awareness - the potential for all manifestation, everything that is seen, heard, felt, accomplished, experienced... (dynamic energy, warmth, or bliss are terms often used). We can also think in terms of Dharmakaya (empty aspect), Sambhogakaya (knowing aspect), and Nirmanakaya (manifestation aspect). I do not intend to define Rigpa as space, awareness, and warmth. I'm referring to the Nature (or Essence) of Mind (Reality), of which Rigpa is most closely related to the awareness aspect. I think there are some sources and individuals that use Rigpa and the Nature of Mind interchangeably, for my own clarity I generally don't. I hope we can avoid getting too bogged down in terminology here. It's good to be on the same page but the terminology can be as much of a distraction as a support if we're not careful. As mentioned earlier, when I use the words space, awareness, and warmth, I am referring more to an experiential guide to practice. To try and grasp the nature of mind or rigpa intellectually is a dead end, at least for me. To those engaged with a sutric practice, it is a demanding exercise. To rest comfortably and settle into a feeling of inner spaciousness, clear presence, and experience the warmth, the joy and bliss, that arise from that place - that is what I'm referring to.

I would argue that the "...one..." in your definition must be removed. When that one is no longer the subject, there remains only unbounded presence of pure knowing-ness and it's display. I like to think in terms of the three characteristics of space, awareness, and warmth but would not call it a definition, more a practice, for indefinite is one of its characteristics.

Spotless needs no one to speak for him but i would like to add my perspective on his comments about family, friends, and fortune. I didn't take it as stern or uncaring. One characteristic present in the experience that I refer to when speaking of "awakening" is that of total continuity - in sharing my experiences with others, this seems to be consistent. A profound certainty arises regarding the nature of being and presence. The words that come to mind to describe this are birth-less, death-less, unceasing, indestructible, without center, inseparable, non-dual, limitless, unbounded, and so forth. The real-ness of this realization obliterates all fear of death and loss. It is not an absence of feeling or compassion but rather a subsumption of the isolated self that has something to lose into the wholeness of being that neither loses nor gains. That more full, non-dual perspective, in fact, gives rise to a depth of feeling and compassion that I've never previously known.

I agree roger. I've also realized that there is but one practice for me, and a very simple one at that. I've known that for a long time and yet have been drawn into a variety of complexities as you allude to. And I'm reminded of Peter Fenner's words: If I didn't do what I didn't need to do, I wouldn't know I didn't need to do it.

You make a good point. My choice of words was poor. My experience of opening was also life-altering. It seems disrespectful to speak of it for me somehow so I tend not to share the details. The absolute perspective was suddenly there and completely overwhelmed the relative for a time but the relative slowly crept back. I can relate to dwai's OP in that some habitual patterns found their way back in to my life and i've invested time and energy in working with them. With respect to integration, it's taken me time to find context for the experience and perspective so that I can find ways to do it justice and express it optimally in my relative existence - work, relationships, and so forth. It is such a precious gift, such a blessing, that to do otherwise seems contemptuous. I wonder what it would have been like to simply rest in isolation for years. Would the relative perspective have stayed at bay longer? Forever? Would my transformation/dissolution have been more profound, persistent, or different in some way? Quite likely so. There is good reason for many of the practices preserved in the wisdom traditions, such as those of isolation. I immediately returned to a life filled with family and work obligations. As I think you've alluded to earlier or elsewhere, I have observed (and therefore tend to believe) that as long as the human condition exists, the relative mind/body is never completely extinguished other than perhaps for transient periods; and each of us expresses our experience of the absolute in unique ways based on our frame of reference and context. I would think that at some point and to some extent, the relative perspective was there for Ramana as well. At some point in his time in isolation I suspect there was some contemplation of the relative mind, the absolute mind, their relationship, their expression, and their mutual integration. Perhaps there was also an experience of the arising of visions as we practice in the dark retreat (I admit that I know little about Ramana's history). Then again, I could be mistaken and his transformation was so profound there was nothing but pure being the entire time he was in isolation.

I would propose that one really cannot deal with all of the residual preferences and habits until one is again subjected to their influences, after returning to society. In fact, that is when integration occurs. I suspect Ramana rested in that cave in order to thoroughly experience, investigate, and stabilize his realization in order that it would be strong and stable enough to withstand the challenges of integration.

The short answer is that we should do nothing about these experiences provided we are strong enough and awake enough. Open the heart fully to the patterns and feelings and rest in the knowledge of the true self. The patterns are transitory states that will pass. If they do not pass it is because you are contributing something - either holding on or pushing away at some level. They may not dissolve in a day. Like an old diploma rolled up for years, when unrolled it will spring back into a cylinder. These patterns have been established over years, decades, lifetimes. If they do not pass and come back with more power, it does not mean that resting and allowing doesn't work, it is that we are not aware or skillful enough, not patient enough, not awake enough, not really resting. After all, it is the one who is resting that is responsible for all troubles - if they truly rest there can be no conflict. Our reaction to such patterns can go very deep and subtle. We may think we are allowing and yet we are actually repressing or suppressing. This is a lifetime practice. Early on along the path we may not have the courage, patience, skill, and awareness to simply observe and allow. in that case, it is far better to intervene skillfully than to act in such a way that is detrimental to self and others. Hence the value of rituals, mantras, antidotes, formal meditation practice, pujas, and all the rest. When we are mature enough in our practice, all effort simply becomes a reinforcement of the illusion that there is someone there to be affected, someone there to intervene. At this level the practice becomes one of non-intervention. In the dzogchen tradition, this is known as trekchod - cutting through. Whatever comes, we rest in the nature of mind - that is the entire practice. The critical point is that we are resting in the correct place. At first we do this during formal practice only. As we get stronger, we bring it into our waking lives. Eventually we bring it into our dreaming and sleeping lives. Then we hopefully bring it to our death. A common misconception is that this is the same as nihilism or utter inactivity. Not true at all. It is more that the one who is confused simply gets out of the way. What comes of that is whatever any given situation requires. One does nothing and yet nothing is left undone.

I disagree, it's my opinion and observation that both intent and the act itself contribute to karma. An unintentional act may have consequences. An intention never acted upon may not, or at least not the same as if the act was carried out.