doc benway

Not sure I fully understand your post allinone, my apologies. One point seems to be the importance of combining dream practice with foundational spiritual practices. I agree with that. Dream practice is a 24 hour cycle and incorporates morning, daytime, evening, and sleep components. In addition, it is meant to be one part of a more comprehensive tantric spiritual practice. You mention that "you require only the lucid dream xp itself not what you do there in or "meditate in dream." I do not agree fully with this point. As Ilya mentioned, the lucid dream experience can be very unstable and it is only through practicing with the lucidity that we can stabilize the practice, make it more predictable, and learn how to effectively manipulate the dream environment. We can learn to change things, make the larger, smaller, multiply things, visit places, seek teachings, and so forth. For the dream practitioner this is all very worthwhile and requires a lot of patience and practice.

Most people who practice run in to that obstacle. The realization that "I am dreaming" leads to excitement which destabilizes the realization and we either wake up or find ourselves in another dream. Since we have to sleep every night, there's nothing to lose by continuing the practice! These practices are far from useless but they do take an enormous amount of patience and dedication, especially for those of us not living in monastic circumstances. I think it also helps a great deal to have transmission from a lineage master.

One of my main practices is exactly this - feeling space. We work with it in several ways - feeling stillness in the body, hearing silence in the speech and sound, feeling spaciousness in the mind and heart. Working with dream and sleep also relate to this - being lucid in dream and changing the dream gives rise to more freedom for change in waking life where things generally feel so solid there is less confidence in the ability to change. Experience of awareness in dreamless sleep gives another level of depth to the experience of "feeling space." The result is to ultimately be more focused on the observer than the observed and in turn to be focused on the inseparability of the observer/observed experience. The implications relate to the very existence of the observer and the observer/observed duality that we accept as reality. I read a wonderful quote recently by Anthony Demello - Silence is not the absence of sound, it is the absence of self.

Hi qicat, I'm happy to share some thoughts. Our minds generate everything we see, everything we think, everything we are, in their interaction with surrounding conditions. If I pay attention, I notice all sorts of thoughts, images, impression, and internal dialogues arising throughout the day. Even how we interpret and experience things we assume are 'outside' ourselves - sights, sounds, smells, tastes... It's all a reflection of our mind. Where does this all come from? Our experience, desires, aversions, memories, unresolved conflict, and so forth. Same thing for dreams - they are just that same activity of the mind occurring during sleep. Everything we encounter, everything that affects us, will play out in our dreams. Meditation and qigong both open us to a deeper connection to ourselves - repressed and suppressed emotion and memories will come up as our practice deepens and strengthens. My Daoist meditation master said one of the benefits of practicing meditation is that it allows us to face and work through this stuff while we are young and healthy. He said that eventually everyone must face it all and most people face it without training or preparation when they are frail, sick, and close to death. He used to attribute the extremely high rate of suicide in the elderly to this part, in part. So I would suggest that it is normal to dream and it is expected that your dreams will reflect your daily life. Adding meditation and qigong to your life will potentially lead to richer, more intense dreams, and it is likely that you will face deeper and potentially more disturbing things that you've hidden away. Over time, if your daily life becomes more well-adjusted, more peaceful, more at ease through these practices, your dreams will as well. I practice yogas of dream and sleep. In dream yoga, we train ourselves to recognize we are dreaming in the dream and to take control of the dreamscape. In learning to be in control in our dreams, we can similarly be in control of, and make changes in, our waking lives, often in ways we would not have thought possible. Sleep yoga focuses more on examining and experiencing the process of transition between waking and sleep. It usually passes in an instant, in ignorance, with no memory, and yet as we learn to observe the transition it is seen to be a gradual, multi-layered, and fascinating process of dissolution of the self. It is thought to be somewhat similar to the dissolution experienced at the time of death. With practice, we can ride our awareness right into sleep and rest in the experience of perfect clarity and awareness in deep sleep, in the absence of dreams. This is thought to be very similar to the first Bardo encountered in death (there are several). Recognizing this in sleep can make us more likely to recognize our true face in death which is said to be a door to liberation from the cycles of samsara. Edited to add a few words about energy - One explanation from the Tibetan tradition is that the genesis of a dream is a combination of a subtle "wind" (Tibetans use the word wind, subtle movement of energy, to describe what others call prana or qi) interacting with an energy center or chakra. Since we carry our emotional life in our chakra system, the chakra that is stimulated will determine the nature of the dream. In practicing dream yoga, one method is to focus on specific chakras and generate visualizations in that chakra as we fall asleep. This allows us to influence the type of dream we are likely to have (this is divided into categories like peaceful, wrathful, and powerful). So as our energetic life changes through qigong, naturally our dreams will reflect this.

I have a close friend whose son was very ill and on a waiting list for a liver and kidney transplant for a long time. The son and I connected over our interests in music, in particular, a band called Queens of the Stone Age. I had this feeling that I wanted to somehow get the band to do something nice for the kid but didn't know how. I sent a few messages to the band online with no response and simply resigned myself to generate the intention of connecting with the band without knowing how it would happen. Soon after, I found myself working with someone I'd never previously met and we were asked what music we'd like to listen to on Pandora while we worked. I suggested Queens of the Stone Age. He immediately responded to this and shared that he grew up with their drummer. I asked if they were still close and explained my desire to help my friends son, also a drummer. He shot a text message to the drummer. 3 weeks later a huge drumhead signed by the entire band shows up at my friends house with a suggestion that they may be in touch the next time the pass through our area on tour! Soon after that, the boy's spot came up on the transplant list. His surgery was smooth and successful and he's doing great. He's even back to playing the drums.

Sedona and the Grand Canyon are amazing places. I also highly recommend the Olympic Peninsula and Mt. Ranier National Park.

Sorry I didn't read the whole thread before my first reply. To find the Divine we can adopt the attitude of prayer - trust that there is something deeper and more wise than our intellect and reason and open to what it has to offer. Ask for help, embrace our vulnerability and helplessness. This is very unfamiliar to many and may even seem foolish but can be very powerful if it comes from a place of sincerity. Wisdom to a lama is the realization of emptiness, it is the knowledge that the the one who is trying to decide is an illusion. Finding Wisdom is letting go of what we already know and opening to what is new and fresh, what is there when everything else is released. One of my favorite teachers was a poet priest turned Celtic mystic named John O'Donohue. I'll share a quote of his that I love which may not be specifically about sitting on the crossroads but may have something to offer. It's been enormously helpful to me: "And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discovery a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you." That contradiction is the crossroads, what is it trying to teach you? The lesson may be deeper than the choice it represents. Good luck!

If I am having trouble making a decision, I recognize two things - 1. I've analyzed enough... the intellect isn't going to provide the answer 2. The heart is not clear or I'm not hearing what it's trying to tell me My approach is to rest and remain open. When the intellect begins to do its thing again, I notice and allow it to rest. As I quiet and get out of the way, I trust that the right choice will come from a deeper, subtler place when it's ripe and ready to come - assuming a choice needs to be made at all. It is often the case that after all of the struggle, there's really nothing to decide, as Rene shared. The most important part for me is to trust the silence and the openness.

I'll lovingly and respectfully disagree with some of this. I've met folks who have experienced deep Awakening with no experience with Vipassana practice whatsoever. I would also propose that not everyone who practices Vipassana over a long period of time experiences Complete Enlightenment. There are factors of karma involved and there are many paths for many different creatures. And no doubt Vipassana is wonderful and powerful for many.

Yes

Enjoying some nice Lipton's iced tea with sugar right now! Yum

Nice to hear you ramble, qicat. Very little is more awe-inspiring than a genuine feeling of connection to a wisdom lineage, a true master, and a supportive sangha. Except, of course, the direct experience of that "Buddha" as the very stuff of which you are a manifestation. It has never been farther from you than your own mind and skin. The transmission is there to try and help us experience the taste, or at least invite us to be open to the possibility, and to show us the door in ourselves where we can deepen that relationship. The master can't transmit to you what you already are, at best she can create a conducive environment and get you in the mood. Everything else is your karma and predilection. _/\_

Silence is not the absence of sound, it is the absence of self. - Anthony DeMello

The thought that usurps the title "thinker" or "observer" is used to having her way with your attention. It is habitual and therefore comfortable and effortless. In making the transition to a different emphasis on attention, there is enormous resistance. It is like untying a piece of rolled up paper that's been rolled for decades, it will not flatten easily. Practices like shamatha or zhine have 3 stages - 1. Effortful - much energy is required to maintain focus 2. Effortless - we can rest relax into the experience with little or no exertion 3. Ultimate - we no longer even relax, it is of itself so, nothing to do and no one to do it... With skillful practice, persistence, and patience, it is possible to dis-identify with the "thinker" and simply allow the thoughts to come and go without engaging. Over time it takes less effort and, eventually, it is restful and rejuvenating. Like BES says, take it slow.

Exactly, what else do "I" have to work with? When I can let go, there is nothing left to do.

How to give rise? Get out of the way! It happens of itself. It already is... it is the 'you' that is in the way. You have touched upon the important mechanics of meditation. There is presence, clarity, and relaxing (I prefer words like resting, opening, letting go). It is important that the 'investigative attitude' not be a part of the meditation. It is valuable before and after meditation to motivate and integrate the experience. If it is a part of the meditation, it simply blocks the letting go of the one who is the obstacle. Above all, it takes time (for most), patience, and persistence. Some would add that things like faith, devotion, trust, and prayer are extremely helpful. I think this is because it transcends cause and effect - a lifetime of skillful practice may not yield fruit while it may emerge in an instant for a non-practitioner. There is that quality of grace or blessing. It all depends on your unique constitution and conditioning, I think.

Happy Songkran!

I think there is deeply important. The one that we take seriously is, in fact, the source of all of our problems. Ultimately, that is what needs to be addressed. It's interesting to see some common threads. Three important points that I would pass on are: Don't take yourself too seriously, it is you who is the problem Others can give you guidance, but you must do the work for yourself Awareness is the key

Are you being pushed to take the earthly view? Or do you already simply have it? I think that view simply exists, it must be acknowledged and it is the frame of reference within which we operate. We don't need to do anything to have that view, it is the product of our collective human karma and conditioning. To transcend that view requires a fundamental alteration. It is often portrayed as killing oneself, as dying to the self. For many, there is a need to seek isolation in order to connect with a deeper experience of Self - this could be the message in the description of killing friends and family. Only after it is found and stabilized are they able to return and integrate. Being called weak by women may represent a challenge to the ego and to the one who would cut through that ego. The process of connecting with the truth is often described as cutting through, as in the Dzogchen tradition - Trekchöd (cutting through) is the method of connecting with one's true nature. There is a practice in Buddhism called Chöd, which is figuratively cutting oneself to pieces and offering the body and mind to demons and those less fortunate, and is traditionally practiced in very threatening and unsafe environments, alone and at night. Demello speaks well about how it can be a very painful process, how we don't want to wake up. We are very comfortable in our illusion and ignorance, opening ourselves involves extreme vulnerability and subjects us to a degree of empathy that can be devastating to some who aren't prepared. Perhaps there is a clue to what's going on in the fact that many of the ancient books of wisdom are full of violence and contradiction, and yet at there core are similar principles of love, compassion, and wholeness. I think that represents the Two Truths to which manitou alludes. In my opinion and experience, teachings are all best viewed as myth, as allegory, as fable, not as indisputable and literal fact. Those who take these teachings literally generally make a mess of things - we see that very clearly in Islam, in Christianity. I've discussed the Gita with Hindu practitioners on occasion and I've yet to meet one who takes the story as literal fact. They take it as a guide, a multi-layered story that speaks to us on multiple levels. And I know relatively little about the Gita, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

From my perspective, anyone who proposes that it is OK to kill others in pursuit of spiritual goals has not had an insight into the nature of mind. Bodhicitta is the infinite source of pure compassion - the one who would pursue spiritual goals is seen as the illusion it is. The former are more akin to political extremists hijacking spirituality or religion as a justification for their ignorance. We are invited to learn from the ancient books, not necessarily accept everything they portray at face value.

Space is used as many of its characteristics are instructive.Space is unbounded, limitless, empty, indestructible, unborn, undying, and so forth. Again, not a definition but only a description of certain attributes.

The Buddhists and Bönpos prefer to use 'empty' or 'space' rather than 'existence' because that is their view of the nature of 'existence' you refer to. One of the subtle but fundamental differences between Vedic and Madhyamika philosophy, I believe. It seems we are otherwise speaking a very similar language.

I will respectfully decline to define but I'll do my best to describe. I'm using Pure to describe the clear, unstained, unbiased aspect (emptiness/space) of the awakened experience. Knowing-ness refers to Rigpa which I think is best translated into English as Knowing or Knowledge (some use presence or awareness). It's Display refers to the infinite potential that lies within that inseparability of space and awareness - the potential for all manifestation, everything that is seen, heard, felt, accomplished, experienced... (dynamic energy, warmth, or bliss are terms often used). We can also think in terms of Dharmakaya (empty aspect), Sambhogakaya (knowing aspect), and Nirmanakaya (manifestation aspect). I do not intend to define Rigpa as space, awareness, and warmth. I'm referring to the Nature (or Essence) of Mind (Reality), of which Rigpa is most closely related to the awareness aspect. I think there are some sources and individuals that use Rigpa and the Nature of Mind interchangeably, for my own clarity I generally don't. I hope we can avoid getting too bogged down in terminology here. It's good to be on the same page but the terminology can be as much of a distraction as a support if we're not careful. As mentioned earlier, when I use the words space, awareness, and warmth, I am referring more to an experiential guide to practice. To try and grasp the nature of mind or rigpa intellectually is a dead end, at least for me. To those engaged with a sutric practice, it is a demanding exercise. To rest comfortably and settle into a feeling of inner spaciousness, clear presence, and experience the warmth, the joy and bliss, that arise from that place - that is what I'm referring to.

I would argue that the "...one..." in your definition must be removed. When that one is no longer the subject, there remains only unbounded presence of pure knowing-ness and it's display. I like to think in terms of the three characteristics of space, awareness, and warmth but would not call it a definition, more a practice, for indefinite is one of its characteristics.

Spotless needs no one to speak for him but i would like to add my perspective on his comments about family, friends, and fortune. I didn't take it as stern or uncaring. One characteristic present in the experience that I refer to when speaking of "awakening" is that of total continuity - in sharing my experiences with others, this seems to be consistent. A profound certainty arises regarding the nature of being and presence. The words that come to mind to describe this are birth-less, death-less, unceasing, indestructible, without center, inseparable, non-dual, limitless, unbounded, and so forth. The real-ness of this realization obliterates all fear of death and loss. It is not an absence of feeling or compassion but rather a subsumption of the isolated self that has something to lose into the wholeness of being that neither loses nor gains. That more full, non-dual perspective, in fact, gives rise to a depth of feeling and compassion that I've never previously known.