doc benway

I don't know the context but there are a few possible interpretations. One is that from the perspective of the natural state, everything is perfect just as it is. Us mortals who are migrating through cyclic existence don't have that perspective and therefore make the mistake of constantly trying to change things. Many get a glimpse of the natural state but very few are able to dwell there with consistency so even knowing there is nothing to be changed based on our connection to the base, we stubbornly and foolishly do so when we are in the state of ignorance. I don't participate in any spiritual forums other than this one but it seems like there are people who imagine that there are living practitioners who have completely transcended samsara and dwell in the natural state. If there are any such beings, I would say they are exceedingly rare - more likely non-existent. I've never met an accomplished geshe or lama who wasn't quick to point up their own limitations and need for further work - up to and including the Dalai Lama and the highest living Bönpo, His Holiness Lungtok Tenpai Nyima Rinpoche. There is at least one other interpretation. We have a tendency to look at our problems and challenges as a result of the outside world when, in fact, we are the source of our own problems. From the Dzogchen perspective, all is perfect as it is so there nothing to be changed. When we perceive something to be a problem it is our ignorance, not the outside world. The Tibetans define three types of practitioner: The inferior practitioner blames the outside world for their problems. The middling practitioner shares the blame with others. The superior practitioner considers all problems to be a result of their own ignorance. Seen in this light, the quotation can be seen as an admonition to aspire to be a superior practitioner. I don't know if the quote is pointing directly to the aspiration of relative bodhicitta but that certainly does underlie every Mahayana Buddhist and Bönpo practice and view.

If anyone feel offended, you've given them a wonderful opportunity to bring their practice to that feeling. Please don't limit your posting here - anyone who follows your posts knows you meant no offense.

Not making an argument, just sharing my experience regarding the restfulness aspect. With respect to dreaming, it consistently occurs in REM sleep and sleep studies give us an idea of how often people dream on average. REM sleep comprises about 25% of the sleep cycle. Edited to add - I've read that people forget >90% of their dream on average.

To the extent we can maintain our connection to that state, there is nothing to change. In my experience, maintaining that connection is elusive - especially living in the world.

You raise a very good point. In fact, I raised the same point when I received the teachings. I asked how one could experience clear light sleep in the absence of sensory input as the senses are the mediators of experience and memory. And if one were to have such an experience what would there be to remember? I don't think I phrased the question very clearly at the time. I focused a bit too much on the memory aspect. The answer didn't really address my question and I didn't belabor it. Interestingly, in the very next practice session I had the experience I referred to. While your suggestion that the experience was one of sight rings true for me there was absolutely nothing to be seen, only the presence of what I can best describe as a spark or light of awareness and boundless space. Perhaps that "spark" of awareness and space was enough to constitute an experience mediated by sight. There may also have been a tactile component in the feeling of spaciousness which was preceded by a brief feeling of vertigo. There definitely was a sense of self present. I'm not stating emphatically that I had an experience of "pure awareness" but I also can't say there is a recollection of specific sensory experience beyond profound restfulness, clarity, and spaciousness. It's quite possible that these experiences were meditated by some combination of sense consciousnesses. I appreciate your input, it's very helpful.

My experience is different. I never feel more rested than after lucid dreaming or practicing sleep yoga. Just because we don't recall our dreams does not mean our sleep is dreamless.

Are you referring to relative vs absolute bodhicitta? Relative bodhicitta is cultivating the aspiration to achieve liberation in order to benefit all sentient beings. Absolute bodhicitta is a direct insight into the abiding nature of things - stong pa nyid. In Bön Dzogchen practice, both are engaged. Relative bodhicitta is cultivated in the foundational practices - the ngöndro. As we develop a direct connection to the natural state, absolute bodhicitta emerges spontaneously. I'm afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough about all nine vehicles to give a much more detailed summary.

Not only is it referring to the natural state - it is being made from the perspective of the natural state. When we actually connect deeply with that place, everything is seen as absolutely perfect. Everything has its place, all pieces fit together like the most beautiful puzzle - nothing is lacking, nothing is redundant, nothing is out of place. From the perspective of our samsaric existence, it often makes little sense because of our judgement and identification with this ego, this body, and all the roles that we play.

Allow me to clarify - I did not mean to equate the natural state with openness. I was referring more to the practices we engage in along the way. Openness allows us to connect, it facilitates the presence of awareness and warmth, it clears obstacles, and it is the antithesis of grasping and aversion. A few examples - The breathing practices for clearing the channels is about creating openness in the channels. The tsa lung practices for clearing the chakras creates openness in the chakras. Sitting in contemplation we are open to everything that arises just as it is and in that openness it can liberate. Integrating into our daily experience we are open to all that we encounter, not resisting or rejecting, not grasping, and in that openness we allow things to be as they are and hopes and fears liberate. Our "work" as imperfect practitioners takes up more time in our lives than does resting in the natural state (at least it does for me still). Living in samsara, perhaps my greatest resource is cultivating, resting in, and trusting in that openness. It is an integral part of the view, meditation, conduct, and fruition. If your experience is different, that is fine - please share if you are so inclined. I can only speak from my own and I know that I have a very long way to go.

Well said and very insightful, Bindi, thank you. You've summarized the Dzogchen approach. I also think this is analogous to the approach of Wu Wei in Daoism. That said, I also think there is something to deliberately acting with compassion. While we remain deluded and confused, acting on behalf of others is still preferable to acting selfishly and practicing imperfect compassion makes us more familiar with the real thing and perhaps brings us at least a bit closer. This is the foundation of the Mahayana approach in Buddhism - we work towards personal liberation with the express intention of improving our ability to help others.

Until I'm able to rest in the natural state in every sleeping, dreaming, and waking moment, I find it a very valuable tool on the way.

Awakened mind is the fruition resulting from no cause. Awakened mind is the instruction that does not come from words. Awakened mind is the buddha who does not stem from thought. Like space, awakened mind is not a thing that can be seen. Devoid of color, it is not a thing to be singled out as this. - Lady Purasati, courtesan and lineage holder of the Mahasandhi teachings

Practitioners of dream and sleep yoga do it. I've done it.

It is possible to have a similar experience in deep sleep, when the five sense are disengaged completely - this is the objective of sleep yoga practice.

I've been distracted by more than one hot meditator...

Some thoughts - The retreat environment will be very supportive which will be very conducive to deepening your practice. Whatever comes up, let it go. Use the silence as an opportunity to connect with yourself and your experience very deeply, not just during formal meditation sessions but as consistently as possible throughout the 10 days. Maintain the feeling of gratitude and enthusiasm, that's very valuable. Trust in the method and the teachings, that is also very valuable. Most of all, enjoy!

I think that depends on what we mean by meditation. There are lots of meditations that involve prayers, mantras, visualizations, and so forth. These are all using the "mind stuff" to to loosen its hold on us. Sometimes we use the word meditation to mean that state that transcends the "mind stuff." In my practice, we connect with three aspects - stillness (of the body), silence (of the speech), and spaciousness (of the heart/mind). Very similar to what you are referring to. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Yes, I am listening. And yes, there are disagreements between highly skilled people. We see that in every discipline - physics, math, philosophy, music, martial arts... I can certainly see how that can be confusing. The answer is to do what you are doing - attempt to experience what is going on firsthand. The purpose of Qigong, IMO, is not to feel Qi. The purpose of Qigong is to use breathing methods combined with physical movement to achieve specific objectives - health, fitness, healing, martial prowess, etc... While many Qigong instructors emphasize the "feeling Qi" part, it's my opinion that one will get similar effects if one is simply open to what one feels and performs the techniques properly. Neigong like the MCO, on the other hand, is more focused on feeling, connecting with, and guiding the Qi. This is why I mentioned the value of the MCO practice earlier. I applaud you for trying new things but just because you are trying some new exercises does not mean that you are open-minded about the nature of Qi. I'm referring more to your expectations and assumptions about Qi itself, not how to find it. You may still be looking for the same wrong thing in the same wrong place using a different tool. We are so perfused with others' ideas of what Qi is and is not and what it "feels like" that it can be difficult to be open enough to actually sense it and trust that we are feeling the right thing. If we are looking for a diamond, expecting it to be clear and sparkly, we may come across one that is unpolished and toss it away because it's not what we expect to find. That may not be a great analogy but hopefully you get my drift. Yes, I agree - one can be open and disagree. One can also be quite closed minded and think they are open. Most of us do not think we are closed minded, whether we are or not. Being open can be very challenging. Our prejudices and assumptions are very deeply rooted and can be very subtle. In fact, there are entire spiritual disciplines devoted entirely to openness - I follow one. I'll offer a few more words FWIW - Often when we are looking for something intently we just can't find it. Ever look for something for a long time, then just give up, and find it was sitting right in front of you the whole time? It's similar to when we try to think of a specific word or memory and we just can't find it until we stop trying. This is because the more we try, the more focused we become. Think about focusing, it means to narrow or close down, to shut out information so that a limited amount of information is more pronounced. In my practices, one of the major obstacles is our effort. The more effort we exert the more we disconnect with the objective - openness. And it's difficult to overcome the obstacle of effort, anything you try to do to overcome it means more effort... It's tricky. Best to do what practices you can and be very attentive and open to what is happening in your body, like you're doing with the balls and the ruler. Try to feel what's going on as if you have a brand new body, one that you've never inhabited before. We take so much of our inner (and outer) experience for granted that we tend to feel little more than pain or intense pleasure. Our sensory organs are finely tuned to exclude most information and focus us on a very limited bandwidth of useful information that we can process. There's so much more out there. Your physical limitations are not preventing you from feeling Qi, your expectations and preconceived notions are, IMO. I wish you the best of luck.

Great link! Thank you

Very cool idea in bold, thanks for that. With respect to "how to focus" I couldn't agree more. Sometimes it is the very act of focusing that is the obstacle. That combined with an inaccurate expectation of what we "should" be feeling and where. For me, the recognition was a combination of being open to something new and then realizing I'd been feeling it all along but not paying the proper attention and not recognizing. There's a little pocket-sized book by Waysun LIao called The Essence of Tai Chi. In it Master Liao talks a bit about how to feel Qi for beginners and those not having success. It may be worth reading for the OP, I've heard a few folks claim it helped them.

Just wanted to let you know, I'm still around. I did read what you wrote. I think the problem lies in your conceptualization of Qi as I wrote before. I won't bore you with more suggestions except one - practicing the microcosmic orbit with an experienced guide could help a great deal. Practicing from books and videos, not so much. In addition, I think it is fine to practice taijiquan, bagua, xingyi, and qigong without "feeling Qi" at all. Your body and mind will still benefit if your practice is skillful. After reading through most of this thread, if you feel as if you've gotten "zero useful information" then the problem may be that you aren't open to change. When we are too fixed in our view of the world (the story we tell ourselves) we can't change and we can't grow. If we find a way to be more open, there is much more possibility there. Just a thought - I may be totally off base and, if so, my apologies. Good luck

I'm quite pleased with how the discussion evolved without losing control. While I don't want to take up this beautiful thread with too much discussion, perhaps this sanctuary can serve as a model for Buddhist discussion in other areas of the forum... Thank you CT for maintaining this wonderful thread and thanks everyone for putting up with my occasional bursts of verbosity! Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

PS - I think I've derailed this thread enough... Sorry CT, I'll disengage now. Peace