doc benway

oops...

Welcome Kar3n! I hope you enjoy your new role here. A brief piece of unsolicited advice - don't take anything personally or seriously. It's all only a dream and we're a bunch of couch quarterbacks who like to hear ourselves type! I predict that you will be a voice of reason and compassion on the Mods team (not that the rest aren't!) Warm wishes and good luck, Steve

As we, as individuals, approach the experience of non-duality - the nature of mind, we approach the non-separation of observer and observed; there is no self there any longer. The illusion of the separate self dissolves like the thought that it is. The observed and observer become one or, if you prefer a different verb, liberate. This is a direct, personal experience that many of us have. In this context, what would it mean to have infinite natural states? To what would they be related in the absence of separate selves? On what basis would they be defined or distinct from one another? As Lopon says, "How do we practice Dzogchen? First we must practice Guru Yoga." In Tibetan, this is called bla ma'i rnal 'byor. Bla ma'i is the master and rnal 'byor means to unite with, to become one with. We literally unite our mindstream with the mindstream of the master. Once we have successfully connected with that state of being, the state of union with the guru, there is no need to hold on to any thought, concept, or visualization - they simply dissolve into the base. The union has been achieved. You can choose to censor the word oneness from Buddhist and Bön discussion if you like, TI but I find it a useful word that can impart meaning and host shared experience. Once again, we need to put the words to work for us, not the other way around. One point that Tenzin Rinpoche often makes when he teaches is that when we get together for workshops and retreats there is more going on than the transfer of information. He admonishes us to let go of our attachment and dependence on knowledge and information and to open ourselves to the shared presence of our togetherness - as student and teacher, as friends, as sangha members... There is much more potential there than simply the transfer of information. He does this for a reason - I've experienced it very deeply at multiple retreats. It is every bit as important as any information being transferred. If we are too focused on the information we lose out on the truth itself - the truth of presence, the warmth of connection, the support of relationship, seeing how the teachings live and breath in our daily lives. The Buddha Shakyamuni (and Tonpa Shenrab) never intended these teachings to be a philosophy, they were intended to be an accessible tool to ease our suffering. When asked philosophical questions, the masters will generally and compassionately bring the discussion back to the practical role of the teachings in our lives. This is the spirit in which we should approach Bön and Buddhism, IMO. It is critical that we bring these principles into the trivia and pain of our daily lives. This is the workshop where we master and cultivate and experience growth and transformation. All just my personal opinion, FWIW.

Not sure I ever recommended that manitou read Krishnamurti but assuming I did, the answer to your question is no. There are many teachings in the world. Different people need different things at different times in their lives. Krishnamurti has helped me a great deal. I don't read him much any more but there is great value in his words, IMO. Dzogchen is about openness more than anything, it may be helpful for you to consider that.

The core method of the Bön Dzogchen method is Guru Yoga - becoming One with the root master, Kuntuzangpo; occupying the mind space of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the 3 times. Listening to a talk on tantra today, the emphasis was on transcending the limited self by transforming into, becoming one with, the deity. Breaking free of the ego through connection with a much bigger concept and experience of self. The experience of oneness that you speak of, manitou, is that very transcendence, the union with the guru. Oneness abounds in these teachings.

In my opinion, there is little value in trying to come up with questions that don't exist in your mind. That seems unnatural and forced. A teacher has come in to your life - that is very special; let him/her teach you. Listen closely and practice at least a little every day. If a question occurs to you that you cannot answer yourself and seems important, then ask. Taijiquan and the Daoist arts are about naturalness and spontaneity. I have a friend who had the rare opportunity to have a personal meeting with a high lama in Nepal. She couldn't think of anything important enough" to ask him and forced a question, something along the lines of which practice should I focus on?" The reply was something like, "How should I know? Why not just sit with me, enjoy our tea and cookies and this beautiful morning together?" Taijiqun is an experiential art, it is about direct experience, acquiring, and cultivating mental and physical skills, not about conceptual knowledge so much. The conceptual mind doesn't know how to take a back seat and constantly interferes. Practicing taijiquan and neigong to a large degree are about putting the conceptual mind in its proper place. I'd suggest you not worry too much about questions and answers right now and simply apply yourself to the practice whole-heartedly. Most of all - enjoy! PS - one tip: if you are trying to learn a movement that seems complicated, focus on the footwork and stance first - watch the teachers footwork, stance, and waist movement. If you get the lower body movement, everything else comes from that naturally. We generally focus more on the upper body movements and that can make it a bit more difficult to learn, at least that was my experience.

I don't find it quite so simple and I freely admit that I do not have a better explanation. I do acknowledge that there is no transcendent reality or shared mind in Buddhist thought. Multiple non-dualities? Multiple unbounded spaces? Does that make sense? Perhaps, perhaps not... it certainly is a delicious mystery for me, and that is enough. To be honest, it doesn't really matter. It is as it is, the Dzogchen way is to simply let go and leave it as it is. I think CT made a very important point. We often have a tendency to correct or negate others when they are sharing a personal experience. This has the effect of invalidating their experience and is completely gratuitous. We cannot experience their perspective independently. The alternative is to maintain openness and in that openness there is a possibility of connection and growth. We need to make words work for us, not the other way around.

How many natural states are there?

There certainly is a fundamental Oneness in the Bönpo tradition referred to as thiglé nyag cig. It isn't one exactly, more like non dual. It literally means something like single sphere and refers to the absence of edges, boundaries, or divisions; the non dual nature. It's an important concept in Bön Dzogchen. It refers to a distinct, direct experience which is what manitou is pointing at with her choice of words. Namaste

It's good to do your research and go into this well informed.

I have wondered about that... If we're not capable of planeticide yet, I imagine it will be in our future.

I did that in my post. Good luck on your way...

Lots of great info on this thread. My response was based on the fact that the OP is new to chanting. It wasn't intended to be comprehensive. I'll also suggest that we not be too quick to let go of the vocalization of seed syllables and mantras. There is more to the effect of vocalization of mantra than the mastery of mental focus. While that is clearly a very valuable aspect, the sound has its own benefits. The sound and vibration can help clear and transform.

One perspective - Generating the genuine intention to help others is next. This is the way to continue to let go of the attachment to the self, put the welfare of others before your own. One excellent measure of progress is the degree to which you manifest enlightened qualities in your life and enrich the lives others. Markers are things like openness, being non-judgemental and supportive of others, feeling spontaneous warmth and creativity. Knowing when there is no need to do anything but be present (or absent) and doing what needs to be done when necessary and doing it without effort. It's easy to tell ourselves how advanced and accomplished we are. Easy to think we've reached the depths of ourselves or the peak of our potential. If we're not manifesting these enlightened qualities in our everyday lives, we're not as far along as we may believe... And I agree with Old Chi - live life fully. It seems contradictory, giving up your sense of self and engaging fully with life but with the right perspective it makes complete sense and it works.

Best is a flawed concept The question is which is best for you? Tough for strangers to answer that.

all one quick motion peel the skin over my head what remains is space

Here's one that I practice: http://www.oceanofwisdom.org/mantra.php?mantra=15 May we swiftly achieve complete Buddhahood of the three Bodies _/\_

If we ban the topic, we may get a thank you note from John Chang...

Chanting seed syllables and mantras are said to work at a non-conceptual level. The actual vocalization is the foundation. Prayers and songs have a conceptual component and silent recitation is common especially for those doing large numbers of accumulations.

Out loud is better. If you do it silently, you won't generate the inner vibrations. My point earlier was that you should focus on how it feels inside while you are making the audible sounds. Don't focus too much on what it would sound like to others or on a recording.

I agree that chanting can be a valuable support to spiritual practice. One particularly interesting approach is the Warrior Seed Syllable practice. You can find out more about it here and here if you are interested. One important point about chanting is how you are vocalizing. The idea is not so much to focus on the sound that projects outwardly for others to hear. It's better to focus on creating a sound that you feel internally and the external sound will be what it is. There should be a feeling of internal vibration, space, and movement. It will change and develop with practice and experience. Depending on what you are chanting, the internal feeling will vary in characteristics and location. Enjoy!

Tenzin Rinpoche at his best: http://www.lionsroar.com/the-great-perfection-of-creativity/?utm_content=bufferf4221&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=Pema+SIP

I once had a glimpse of the nature of karma. I saw how every interaction I'd ever had, with everyone I'd ever come into contact with, and even those I'd never met but were indirectly related to me through others: all came together perfectly, like pieces of an unfathomable puzzle. And I was who, what, and where I was at that exact moment, precisely because of every event and interaction that touched my life in some way, large or small. The complexity and depth of these interactions was so vast that I kept falling deeper and wider into this web of inter-relationship. It reached a point where my mind could no longer grasp it all and I felt as if I would explode, ripped apart by the sheer enormity. Just when I felt I couldn't take anymore I was released by the vision and purified of any doubt as to the nature and workings of karma.

Osho was talking about human relationships. It's not about flowers, it's about our tendency to try and possess those we think we care for.